Prioities

[hdwhit]

The scenario presented below is a composite of various active shooter events that have occurred in the last twenty years and is presented to provide a backdrop for the question that follows:

• You are lawfully carrying a concealed handgun.
• You are in a public space; say, the atrium of a shopping mall.
• You are with a loved one who is not carrying.
• There are several people present, but the area is not crowded.
• A person apparently carrying a handgun with large capacity magazine begins to shoot into the people in the area.
• The shooter is in a prominent position that gives him a view of the people in the area.
• The shooter is stationary, appears calm and appears to be selective in picking who to shoot.
  
• Three people are hit; one is apparently dead and the other two are making enough noise that you know they are wounded.
• At this point you do not know the extent of their wounds.
• You do not know at this point there is another person present who is also lawfully carrying a concealed handgun.
• The other person is some distance, say, 50 feet from you.
• You draw your weapon and begin to fire at the active shooter.
• The other person also draws their weapon and begins to shoot at the active shooter.
• You fire at the active shooter twice and move towards cover.
• The other person, who is apparently not as well practiced as you, fires several shots which apparently all miss the active shooter.
• As you achieve cover, you see that the active shooter is down; apparently hit by at least one of your rounds.
• At this point there are still no identifiable members of the police, private security or emergency services present. They will arrive shortly.

What is the FIRST thing you do next?

And what are your priorities for subsequent actions, such as establishing that the danger has been neutralized, ensuring that the other person knows you are not also a shooter, verifying police and emergency services have been called, tending to the wounded and getting yourself ready to report to the authorities?

I don't pretend to have an answer to my questions. I think many different things could happen and in different orders, but I am interested in hearing what people believe should be done next and the order in which they would prioritize them.

Thank you.

 

[badkarmamib]

Call out to the other responder, just "All clear?" or something, so that we can acknowledge each other, check my loved one, and ask other responder to either tend to wounded or watch WITH EMPTY HANDS for other shooters until police arrive (Police don't like seeing guns in anyone's hands after a shooter call, they won't know if the good guys or bad guys survived). Of course, this is all assuming that my pulse comes down enough for me to think clearly.

 

[JeffG]

Notify 911 via phone. Stay away from shooter's last position. Obtain a position of maximum safety, and let the pro's take the scene.

 

[Deaf Smith]

1) I scan for other nutjobs while keeping gun low and out if sight. 2.) Get "loved one" to call the police. 3.) I congratulate the other shooter.

Deaf

 

[shafter]

I think tunnel vision would make it unlikely that you would even see the other shooter engage. Especially if you didn't know he was there until the shooting started. Often tunnel vision becomes so tight that extreme focus is on just the shooters hands/gun. Once the threat is down there's also a good possibility that you might all of a sudden now notice the other shooter if he still has his gun out and engage him.

 

[herrwalther]

Make contact with the other armed citizen. The last thing to do in this instance is mistake each other for another active shooter and create a friendly fire incident. Call 911 or have someone within visual range call. It is surprising how many people run off "to call 911" end up hiding in a bathroom doing nothing. Pick a covered position so you can keep an eye on the "downed" shooter as well as protect from other potential threats. Make sure you unarmed family member is alright. Depending on the position of the down victims, render aid if possible. Do not move anyone unless they are in immediate danger.

 

[Hanzo581]

Grab my loved one, evacuate. Holstering during our exit (not wanting to be mistaken for the shooter to whatever responders might be en route, call 911 once we're clear of the building.

 

[Wisco]

Why did I have to shoot? Was there no opportunity to run away?

That's one of the last scenarios I'd engage the shooter. Some other concealed carrier could think I'm the shooter. Responding police could think I'm the shooter. Witnesses could all say I was the shooter and the actual shooter was shooting to stop me - eyewitness recollections not being accurate and whatnot.

Assuming I did as the OP said, I'd immediately reholster, render whatever aid I could and exit the immediate area and find the nearest police officer to give a statement and hand over my pistol for evidence and to rule out me shooting anyone the criminal shot.

 

[RPZ]

Why did I have to shoot? Was there no opportunity to run away?

That's one of the last scenarios I'd engage the shooter. Some other concealed carrier could think I'm the shooter. Responding police could think I'm the shooter. Witnesses could all say I was the shooter and the actual shooter was shooting to stop me - eyewitness recollections not being accurate and whatnot.

Assuming I did as the OP said, I'd immediately reholster, render whatever aid I could and exit the immediate area and find the nearest police officer to give a statement and hand over my pistol for evidence and to rule out me shooting anyone the criminal shot.

A forensic/ballistic report will likely establish that you did not shoot the three victims and will show the badguy shot them. Likewise it would show you shot the badguy.

Once you are sure the incident is over, here is possibly one good way to communicate with police and make sure they do not think you are the badguy....

 

[MedWheeler]

Even if shooting has stopped, I'd grab the other defender's attention with something commanding, such as "Cease fire! Cease Fire!" If he and I connected and are in agreement that the immediate threat is down, I'd follow with "Holster your weapon for our safety!" while doing so myself.

Assuming that there appears to be no further threat, and that my companion is still okay, I'd then enlist any others present, including the other defender, in reporting details to LE by phone (shots fired, victims down, suspect down, location, description, etc.) and in assistance to the wounded.

My communication with arriving LE personnel would be dictated by the manner of their approach. I would not readily shout out anything to the effect that I am armed or have fired on the threat. Instead, I'd comply with their immediate directives, which will likely be harsh, commanding, and which won't leave room for dialogue. Once civility has been restored, I'd make contact with the closest LEO/A and advise of my involvement, or would do so as soon as my weapon is discovered, whichever comes first.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Why did I have to shoot? Was there no opportunity to run away?

What makes you think the bad guy will stop with just THREE PEOPLE???

Deaf

 

[MedWheeler]

^^ He's saying he doesn't feel it should be mandatory that he stick around to defend others not known to him, instead prioritizing the safety of himself and his companion. This is a valid point on his part.

 

[Hanzo581]

This isn't the Kobayahi Maru, you can't rewrite the program, in this scenario you shot at the bad guy.

That said if we are changing the parameters, I would not engage if the shooter was not focused on me. My first priority is safety of myself and the love one I'm with in this scenario.

 

[entropy]

My first priority would be to get the loved one to safety. I would not fire until then unless directly fired at. At that point, since I would also be at a safe location, I would secure the safe location and have the loved one cal 911. i am not an LEO, and thus am not obligated to go on the offensive. Were I alone, my reaction may well be different.

 

[RPZ]

This isn't the Kobayahi Maru, you can't rewrite the program, in this scenario you shot at the bad guy.

That said if we are changing the parameters, I would not engage if the shooter was not focused on me. My first priority is safety of myself and the love one I'm with in this scenario.

Your safety and your loved ones(s) might depend on engaging the badguy at first opportunity. Waiting, you might not be in as good as a position as to begin with. There might be more than one badguy unseen as well.

 

[RPZ]

My first priority would be to get the loved one to safety. I would not fire until then unless directly fired at. At that point, since I would also be at a safe location, I would secure the safe location and have the loved one cal 911. i am not an LEO, and thus am not obligated to go on the offensive. Were I alone, my reaction may well be different.

Fired at might be too late for you, or your loved one. One bullet.

Days, months later? "If only I had..."

I concede it could work both ways.

 

[Hanzo581]

Your safety and your loved ones(s) might depend on engaging the badguy at first opportunity. Waiting, you might not be in as good as a position as to begin with. There might be more than one badguy unseen as well.

Sure, anything could happen....let's say you take that shaky shot(s) only to find out the guy just got his order in from ar500armor.com and now you're certainly his focus. This scenario could go a million different ways. Getting away and out of the area of an active shooter that isn't currently targeting me is my plan, you're free to have yours and I hope and pray none of us will ever have to test our plans.

 

[RPZ]

This isn't the Kobayahi Maru, you can't rewrite the program, in this scenario you shot at the bad guy.

That said if we are changing the parameters, I would not engage if the shooter was not focused on me. My first priority is safety of myself and the love one I'm with in this scenario.

You say "focused on me". In this scenario you also have your loved one present.

This a hole has a firearm presented, has shot three people. All he has to do is turn his head and look at you, and start shooting your direction, and you do not even have your pistol out of the holster. One bullet could mean the end of you or your loved one. In a fraction of a second. Even if he is 75 yards away.

 

[RPZ]

Sure, anything could happen....let's say you take that shaky shot(s) only to find out the guy just got his order in from ar500armor.com and now you're certainly his focus. This scenario could go a million different ways. Getting away and out of the area of an active shooter that isn't currently targeting me is my plan, you're free to have yours and I hope and pray none of us will ever have to test our plans.

Agreed. But having walked a few malls, I can say that there ain't much cover. If you duck into a store, he may just follow you in there. And simply turning your back and moving is not the way to go when someone has a firearm in hand actively shooting people.

 

[Hanzo581]

We're going to run in circles, there's just too many variables. The malls near me are packed full of concealment, mall map boards, kiosk shops, hell most have several cars in them. My point is simple, if I think we can get away unseen I'm taking that option, if I have to shoot I'll shoot. In this scenario the shooter has a pistol, not that you can't shoot them accurately at range, but it at least makes shots more difficult. It was never mentioned how far the shooter was from you, only that you seem to be able to get a shot on him. So we're having to speculate a lot.

 

[Kleanbore]

If you duck into a store, he may just follow you in there

At which point you may do something.

 

[RPZ]

One point that can be sure. If you are going to engage a badguy - do so while his attention is diverted. Don't wait until his (or her) intentions are on you.

 

[Wisco]

What makes you think the bad guy will stop with just THREE PEOPLE???

Deaf

Nothing makes me think that. I bet he'd shoot a dozen or more if they don't get away as well.

When my ONLY choice is shooting, then I'll shoot. I have a duty to my family to be around for them. Dying to save some strangers who should be saving themselves does my widow and orphan no good.

 

[Kleanbore]

When my ONLY choice is shooting, then I'll shoot. I have a duty to my family to be around for them. Dying to save some strangers....

Probably the best priority...

 

[herrwalther]

Why did I have to shoot? Was there no opportunity to run away?

Number one priority should be safety of self and family first. If escape is possible, that is always the priority. In a life or death situation, it is okay to be selfish and get out if at all possible. Having a gun just increases the chances of getting out. Very few people are going to run toward gun fire. But in this scenario, rounds were fired. So just play into it.