Private sale, how do I know?

[Ryanxia]

That's why we fight tooth and nail to keep our private sales PRIVATE.

To the OP, how many times does someone run the serial # on your guns at the range or in your cabinet? It's never happened to me before. I would think the chances of anyone noticing even if it were stolen 40 years ago (would the records even make it this far?) pretty razor thin.

 

[oneounceload]

This is Georgia and yes private handgun purchases are legal. In fact, any given weekend one can walk up to a roadside flea market and find at least one table that has a few firearms including handguns for sale private purchase

Not only the roadside flea markets - here in FL even the big permanent ones always have a few tables; found a MINT K17-22 Masterpiece at one for a good deal. Cash exchanges hands and we both part happy

Long story short you need to keep paperwork to support your transaction. A notarized slip saying you purchased the gun at such location on such date from such person with their statement that the gun was not stolen and they have legal right to sell it.

Absolutely unnecessary - STOP feeding the anti agenda to have everything recorded - if you wouldn't do it for a chain saw at a garage sale, then there's no need to do it for guns

 

[Arkansas Paul]

oneounceload, I was thinking the exact same thing.
If we're going to fill out paperwork on our own, take it to a freakin notary and have the person write a written statement that the gun was not stolen why don't we just pass UBC and get it over with. It would actually be LESS trouble.

Good freaking grief.

 

[Ryanxia]

Oneounceload / Arkansas Paul - Well said!

 

[au_prospector]

I bought them.

Picked them up today, so I guess this post is "moot"? Since we are in the legal forum...

To clarify my concern, I was worried about running into a hitch if I tried to sell them at a later date and these beauties turned out to have a criminal history, or heaven forbid I bought a firearm that come to find out is stolen. I doubt both of these possibilities. But my post reads how do I know for sure?

I just gave him cash. I didnt feel like asking for a bill of sale, since I know him pretty well. Since his time on earth is defined to the next few months, hopefully the no bill of sale wasnt a mistake.

If you want to see a write up and pics, they are here. . .
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9642681#post9642681

 

[WestKentucky]

Hexhead, I have slips on record showing where all my guns came from and where the ones I sold went. About half are notarized so that the document has ever so slightly more legal pull than the back of a napkin. If I have meticulous notes that say I sold a gun at a gun show to Bob Bobster that came from Adam Adams then it's a heck of a lot better than saying I sold it to some random at a gun show because now the investigation goes in a given direction. Without that I might as well tell them I ate it because I have no verifiable story. Notarization puts a third party on there that swears by their signature and stamp that your story is true. I wish I didn't have to go that far but in today's gun - hostile society I would rather be safe than be labeled a gun trafficker or whatever they cook up when I can't tell them where my weapon went.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Notarization puts a third party on there that swears by their signature and stamp that your story is true...

Actually, that's not true. That's not what a notary does.

A notary can administer an oath and have you sign a document under oath. That makes you liable as a perjurer if you lied in the document.

The most common service performed by a notary is the authentication of a signature on a document. So if you sign a document, "John Smith", a notary can confirm that you have identified yourself as "John Smith" according to an accepted protocol, e. g., you've provided acceptable documentation of your identity.

But a notary is not responsible for the truth of any statement you make, nor for the legitimacy of your representation of your identity. You are.

 

[pjeski]

North Carolina, Minnesota, Michigan, require purchase permits if you don't have a carry permit.

Michigan no longer requires a purchase permit if the seller is a licensed dealer. For private party sales, a "license to purchase" or a "concealed pistol license" is required. In either case, the gun must be registered by the buyer.

 

[il.bill]

Once again, I come to the personal conclusion that Illinois is not so bad, after all. Or maybe I am kidding myself and should just state my opinion that at least Illinois does not have the worst firearm purchase laws in the country.

 

[Midwest]

Once again, I come to the personal conclusion that Illinois is not so bad, after all. Or maybe I am kidding myself and should just state my opinion that at least Illinois does not have the worst firearm purchase laws in the country.

True, all you need is the FOID. And while you have a 72 hour waiting period for a handgun and 24 hour waiting period for a long gun. There are no permits needed beyond the FOID in Illinois, just waiting periods.

New Jersey requires a Permit to Purchase for each handgun and the wait to get the Permit To Purchase can run anywhere from several weeks to several months.
.

 

[GoWolfpack]

If I have meticulous notes that say I sold a gun at a gun show to Bob Bobster that came from Adam Adams then it's a heck of a lot better than saying I sold it to some random at a gun show because now the investigation goes in a given direction.

It is not your job to direct their investigation.

Without that I might as well tell them I ate it because I have no verifiable story.

It is the job of the state to prove you are guilty. It is not your responsibility to prove your innocence.

Notarization puts a third party on there that swears by their signature and stamp that your story is true.

As Frank already pointed out, that is false.

I wish I didn't have to go that far but in today's gun - hostile society I would rather be safe than be labeled a gun trafficker or whatever they cook up when I can't tell them where my weapon went.

When your lawyer (not you) tells the police you sold your gun legally (provided this is the truth) and they have no other evidence connecting you to whatever crime your gun was used in, then you're safe no matter what they want to call you. That is provided you don't hand them incriminating evidence because you contracted diarrhea of the mouth.

You yourself, John Q. Citizen, cannot generate paperwork on your own that proves legal transfer of a firearm. Only an FFL can do that. Any records you keep are for you and do not prove anything from a legal standpoint.

 

[DeepSouth]

t has ever so slightly more legal pull than the back of a napkin. If I have meticulous notes that say I sold a gun at a gun show to Bob Bobster that came from Adam Adams then it's a heck of a lot better than saying I sold it to some random at a gun show because now the investigation goes in a given direction. Without that I might as well tell them I ate it because I have no verifiable story.

I am reminded of the two different occasions I had a legal advisor of some sort tell me to keep LESS paperwork. Their theory was basically, the more paperwork there is then the more their is to find contradictions or irregularities in. Both told me to "keep EVERYTHING you are legally required to, but NOTHING that your aren't required to"
One (a state inspector) even told be as vague as possible when I could

Not to mention, " I sold it to some random guy I had never seen before or since, and no I didn't get his name" is perfectly legal and happens plenty here in AL. I'd be more than happy to tell them that, if they don't belive me that what warrants are for.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I sold it to some random guy I had never seen before or since, and no I didn't get his name" is perfectly legal and happens plenty here in AL.

Yep, it happens here all the time. I have bought, sold and traded more guns than I can remember at this point and no, I don't remember with whom.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I am reminded of the two different occasions I had a legal advisor of some sort tell me to keep LESS paperwork. Their theory was basically, the more paperwork there is then the more their is to find contradictions or irregularities in....

Interesting. I wonder what "sort" of legal advisors they were.

In 30+ years of practicing law it's been my experience that more trouble comes from inadequate documentation than from an abundance of documentation. Of course it also helps if your records are accurate and in good order.

 

[Frank Ettin]

If I have meticulous notes that say I sold a gun at a gun show to Bob Bobster that came from Adam Adams then it's a heck of a lot better than saying I sold it to some random at a gun show because now the investigation goes in a given direction.

It is not your job to direct their investigation.

Without that I might as well tell them I ate it because I have no verifiable story.

It is the job of the state to prove you are guilty. It is not your responsibility to prove your innocence.

...

I wish I didn't have to go that far but in today's gun - hostile society I would rather be safe than be labeled a gun trafficker or whatever they cook up when I can't tell them where my weapon went.

When your lawyer (not you) tells the police you sold your gun legally (provided this is the truth) and they have no other evidence connecting you to whatever crime your gun was used in, then you're safe no matter what they want to call you....

There are some holes in that analysis.

1. While the prosecution has the burden of proof, if the prosecution has linked the gun used in a crime to you, that can be strong and convincing evidence of your involvement.
   
   
2. Your statement (or your lawyer's statement) that you sold the gun legally might or might not be convincing or believed.
   
   
3. Routinely maintaining, as a regular practice, good documentation of your private transactions buying or selling firearms can provide useful corroboration for your otherwise naked claims.
   
   
4. And --
   
   
   • Silence can be evidence of guilt (Salinas v. Texas (No. 12-246, Supreme Court 2013)).
     
     
   • Conduct can be evidence of guilt (U.S. v. Perkins, 937 F.2d 1397 (C.A.9 (Cal.), 1990), State v. Wimbush, 260 Iowa 1262, 150 N.W.2d 653 (Iowa, 1967), State v. Lonnecker, 237 Neb. 207, 465 N.W.2d 737 (Neb., 1991), Martin v. State, 707 S.W.2d 243 (Tex.App.-Beaumont, 1986)).

 

[dab102999]

Michigan no longer requires a purchase permit if the seller is a licensed dealer. For private party sales, a "license to purchase" or a "concealed pistol license" is required. In either case, the gun must be registered by the buyer.

Doesn't the FFL still fill out a purchase permit...you as a buyer are just not required to go to local police dept and get one yourself. But one is still required isn't it??

 

[DeepSouth]

Interesting. I wonder what "sort" of legal advisors they were.

I used the term loosely, and admitly one was not a lawyer at all, but he did wright me the fines and if there was an appeal process I was unaware of it.

One was a state building inspector that was inspecting a hospital and nursing home where I was the maintenance admin. He was only advising me on record keeping and how it could affect me in the event of a disaster. For instance in the event of a major fire if I had inspected our sprinkler system after the company that inspected it quartarly, then if the sprinkler system failed the liability would likely have fallen on me, because I was keeping records of an inspection that I did not legally have to do.

The other was a lawyer that worked with a non-profit group of homeschool defense attorneys. In our state the laws were very clear about what you had to be able to prove and the documents that were considered acceptable proof. He said in our specific state the problem more often than not was that people kept to much paperwork so it got easy to find discrepancies. For example if you are using a 5th grade curriculum, and therefore claim the child is in 5th grade but you also give the child some 4th grade worksheets in areas of weakness then you COULD have a problem. State laws didn't require any of the child's work to be kept. There was a lot of grey area about what you could do but none in the record keeping and reporting.

 

[illinoisburt]

Once again, I come to the personal conclusion that Illinois is not so bad, after all. Or maybe I am kidding myself and should just state my opinion that at least Illinois does not have the worst firearm purchase laws in the country.

Il.Bill -- ya we may not have the worst, but they sure aint what I would call free. Used to be you have to keep a record for 10 years of any guns you sold to a private party. Now you not only have to keep the record for 10 years, you have to verify the purchaser's FOID card run a background check through the state police and put their approval code on your bill of sale. You are also required to observe the waiting periods on private sales the same as commercial transactions.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

How 'bout this:

Know your state and federal laws concerning private sales of firearms and then follow them.

If you choose to add extra stuff...more power to you.

However, the bottom line is this: no matter how much extra stuff of your own that you impose, it doesn't add very much extra legal weight, if any. Heck, even requiring a private sale to go through an FFL may not add much extra weight...suppose the FFL loses that particular record, for example? If an investigation comes back to you on a firearm that was used in a crime, there are three things that have to be connected relative to the crime in order for the state to have any kind of solid case:

1. Motive
2. Means
3. Opportunity

Investigations are all about discovering the details about these three things in order to build a case.

If you're under investigation for a crime, then more than just "this gun was once sold to you" is involved. If you're just a person of interest in the investigation process while they track down various leads, then "this gun was once sold to you" is just another step in that process.


Yeah...we can ALL come up with circumstances where any particular person can be hung out to dry. And yeah...we can ALL get caught up in some unfortunate conglomeration of circumstances in which we end up getting shafted. And yeah...a prosecuting attorney can make ANYTHING about you look bad.

But the fundamental basis for staying on track is to know the laws in the first place and actually follow them.


Owning a gun is a big responsibility. Carrying a gun is an even bigger responsibility. I submit that if one is not ready for this responsibility because they fear the possibility of reprisal from the government in some aspect, then perhaps one is not ready to assume the responsibility of owning a firearm in the first place.

 

[newfalguy101]

Simple really, you cant know for certian

 

[newfalguy101]

bah.....wish I knew how to just delete a post and be done with it

 

[jrmiddleton425]

You could only know for certain if you queried NCIC on a used gun, and the gun had been entered. That, or buy new from an FFL.

 

[cgrutt]

It seems to me in order for the authorities to know the gun you bought was used in a prior crime would be to have you do something to get it removed from your possession, no? In that case, I'd be more concerned with what you did than a prior owner. Why is it that we don't think about these things when buying a used hammer or baseball bat? Gun's don't commit crimes; people do. Don't shoot the messenger, lol.

 

[Lancel]

In the late 1980’s, my father bought a rifle from a private seller in rural Texas. My father died in 1993. Then about 25 years after my father’s Texas purchase, I traded the rifle in Tennessee as part of a new purchase at a local gun shop.

After a few days, that local Tennessee gun shop informed me that the rifle had been stolen and Texas law enforcement was reclaiming it. I had to make up the loss on my trade.

Obviously, a receipt is worthless if the person who wrote it is not the true owner (or agent).

I don’t know if the rifle ever found its way back to the original owner.

In short, even in areas where guns are not registered, serial numbers are retained on stolen goods.

Larry

 

[rhinoh]

I'm curious if some states have a statute of limitation on stolen property, ie a gun could have been reported stolen but enough time has passed nothing can be done about it.
I recently saw where someone found a rare car that had been stolen from them many years earlier- turns out he could not get it back from the current owner because the S of L had run out... I was quite surprised to read that!