Professional training (like frontsight)

[possum]

i have trained at Blackwater USA (N.C), TDI Ohio, I.C.E (Rob Pincus) Combat Focused Shootng(GA), and Tactical Resonse Fighting and Advanced Fighting Pistol(TENN). I will be going back to Tactical Response as well as I.C.E for sure, with many other schools that i want to try in the future, such as Roger's Shooting School, Mag Pul Dynamics,EAG Tactical just to name a few.

the majority of the handgun courses were with my xd service model, and factory magazines. i use blade tech holsters, and mag carriers. for carbine courses i use my bushmaster ar with an eotech, vfg, surefire scout light, and buis. for sling i use a single point. ammo is whatever works and is the cheapest, i use good mags, and a lula mag loader for the higher round count courses you will need it.

every course i have taken overall has been worth it, some more value than others. but there is always something that i take away from each and everyone of the courses that i go to.

a 2 day course is normally around the $400 mark
5 day courses are almost $1000

of course that is the average and you might find different numbers but that is the norm.
if you would like to read aar's online go to www.getoffthex.com and there are aar's from every Tactical Response class, and many other of the big named schools, also pics and great dissucsion there too.

 

[possum]

I have been fortunate to usually pay zero (unless you count a bottle of Chivas Regal or Forty Creek). My pal was 11Bravo in Vietnam and was an officer in a Reserve SF unit in Miami. Nothing like someone who has actually been in combat and who has also used a gun in self defense as a civilian. He has done both and made mistakes in both. I have benefitted from his mistakes and successes.
My point is that there may be good, free help close to home. Are you friends with any vets or police officers? They can be a great source of knowledge and outstanding range buddies.

i am an Infantry squad leader and I am currently on my 3rd deployment to Iraq, with all that said i have learned more in the civilian sector at training courses than i ever had in the army. even with the amount of courses i have taken and the amount of rounds that i fire, and as much as i train on my own out of my own pocket i will never feel that i am good enough, confident yes but not overly so.

My personal goal in life is to be in any sittutaion and under any circumstances be as lethal as humanly possible.
take this statement in bold to heart as i have lived through it. and i understand oh too well exactly what it means, learn form my mistake and train like your life depends on it, because one day it just might.
IN A FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE YOU WILL NEVER WISH YOU HAD LESS TRAINING!

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Read an instructor's books, first, if he/she has published. It provides insight into the instructor's mindset, fighting and training philosophy, manipulations and marksmanship. The information presented should be fairly current and mirror what the instructor teaches.

A training course merely introduces you to an instructor's methodology. You'll be instructed and coached during class, but it is up to you, after the class, to take what you've learned and increase your proficiency on your own. This is why I prefer instructors who are published so I can study their techniques before and after class. Indeed, a great instructor provides his students a workbook, at no extra cost, that details everything they learned in the class, as the tempo is too fast to take good notes.

How do you incorporate skills you've learned with skills you already have? For example, you learn a new high-speed, low-drag technique? The answer for me is how well is integrates with the techniques I already use. If it doesn't integrate well (e.g., it adds extra decision steps; it doesn't flow well with my current techniques and movements; it's more of a standalone technique instead of an integrated, fluid system of techniques; it's preseumptive and works under certain conditions only) then I don't adapt it. I might however use little bits & pieces here and there to fine tune my own techniques.

There are a lot of schools & a lot of instructors to choose from. How do you choose which one? Cost? Convenience? Curriculum? Level of instruction? Celebrity instructor? Start with what you want to learn then review course curriculum. If a particular course interests you then examine the instructor's credentials and ask for references, if available. In addition there are several well-qualified instructors who travel and might be offering a course at a shooting range near you.

Good luck!

 

[rfwobbly]

Don't ever register for Front Sight. I thought it might be a cheap way to get good fast, but it's VERY expensive. The worst part is, I have phone messages, junk email, and junk mail still coming over a year later.

You got to respect their sales department's tenacity, but jez-Louise!

 

[Kleanbore]

I've signed up for a two day course in my area that teaches pistol shooting ("proper grip, stance, trigger control, sight alignment"), reloading techniques, drawing from concealment and/or duty gear, target transitions, multiple target engagement, and weapon presentation. They predict a 30% improvement in accuracy and a 30% improvement in speed. A friend who took the course two years ago beat both of those numbers and strongly recommends it. One is supposed to bring 1,200 rounds of ammo--that's the biggest part of the expense.

This offers the opportunity to practice drawing. One cannot do that otherwise in practicing at ranges here.

They have a follow on course that covers moving and using cover. I'm not sure I'll take it.

LFI-1 has not orbited close enough to me--if and when it does, I'll try to take that also.

 

[gym]

The Op asked about firearms training class. Not devoting your life to becoming a lethal weapon. If you chose that as your life's work, that's up to you, but most here don't, so please don't make like I am being naive for treating it as a mere part of life and not the purpose for ones existence.
Extreme behavior is up to the interpretation of the individual, that's all the Obama thing was. The preoccupation with the need to train for a battle that may never be fought is just an exercise in wasted energy, the ability to prepare for what is likely is more pertinent to a discussion on what training would be deemed reasonable. The polar opposite of a person who thought that they would never have a use for a weapon, and thus never need to train, would be one who expected urban warfare to break out at any time. I think there is a middle ground that most folks could agree upon.
If a high level of tactical readiness is what someone requires to feel prepared, than by all means persue that end. But it's not the norm, it could occur but it's not likely for most citizens to be overly concerned with. Especially after a certain time in one's life.

 

[Frank Ettin]

The Op asked about firearms training class. Not devoting your life to becoming a lethal weapon. If you chose that as your life's work, that's up to you,...

Who's talking about anything of the sort. I know plenty of people who take a class or two every year or so, practice regularly, shoot in IPSC and or IDPA competition from time to time. And they are also normal, well rounded people with jobs (well I'm retired), families, and various interests in addition to, and beyond, shooting.

...I think there is a middle ground that most folks could agree upon....

Why is it necessary for most folks to agree? This is a personal matter, a personal decision and a personal choice. Do what you think best for yourself.

 

[gym]

I do, my opinion don't need to be diagnosed and filtered by you,and I wasn't aware that you and i were having a personnel discussion. Cutting and pasting my comments doesn't change anything. If you read all of the posts you would understand what they were directed at, if not, that's fine too. I am happy that you are happy.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...my opinion don't need to be diagnosed and filtered by you...

Nonetheless, I am permitted to comment on statements made by you in your posts, as long as I don't violate any rules of this board.

 

[smince]

If a high level of tactical readiness is what someone requires to feel prepared, than by all means persue that end. But it's not the norm...

And unfortunately, you can say this is 'not the norm' for a large section of LE as well as CCW holders.

the ability to prepare for what is likely is more pertinent to a discussion on what training would be deemed reasonable.

What is likely? What do you deem to be reasonable training?

 

[JKimball]

Front Sight is the only professional training I've had, but I was very pleased with it. I did the M-16 class and the 4 day handgun.

The handgun class is great for people that haven't had formal training. You learn how to be confident in your ability to safely handle a handgun. You learn how to hit right where you want to. As I recall, by the end of the class they had most of us drawing from concealment and placing 2 shots COM in under 2 seconds. May have even been 1.5 seconds.. not sure. They teach you how to clear malfunctions and how to do reloads quickly. And they teach you how to do dry practice drills so you can keep your skills sharp even if you don't have a range in your back yard.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by gym:

The preoccupation with the need to train for a battle that may never be fought is just an exercise in wasted energy, the ability to prepare for what is likely is more pertinent to a discussion on what training would be deemed reasonable.

I'm not sure where the idea of training "for a battle" came from. However, in determining which risks are prudent to be able to mitigate, likelihood is only half of the equation.

I do not consider that it is "likely" that I will ever have to produce a weapon to protect myself or my loved ones. However, should the need arise, I think it is a very good idea to be able to do it proficiently; the consequences of not being able to do so are just too severe.

What does that mean? It means being able to draw from concealment and fire (if still necessary) in about a second and a half, hitting the intended target(s) effectively, and not hitting anyone else. It means doing so, again if and only if necessary, in a manner that minimizes the likelihood of one's being killed or injured by the assailant(s). It probably also means being able to clear a jam quickly under pressure---though that may not be "likely" either.

Is it reasonable to expect to be able to do that without practice? I do not think so. Is professional training more apt to enable the development of such a level of proficiency that attempting to teaching one's self? It seems reasonable to me that it would be.

The polar opposite of a person who thought that they would never have a use for a weapon, and thus never need to train, would be one who expected urban warfare to break out at any time. I think there is a middle ground that most folks could agree upon.

Does my description (of "what does that mean") above describe that "middle ground" for you?

If a high level of tactical readiness is what someone requires to feel prepared, than by all means persue that end.

I'm not sure what that means. Protective clothing? Large-capacity weapons? A two way radio? Again, my idea of reasonable preparedness is to be armed and to be able to use the firearm, if necessary, with proficiency sufficient to prevent death or serious injury to myself and loved ones, in the unlikely event that the need should arise.

Of course, we do employ other mitigation techniques, including the exercise of situational awareness and avoiding certain places, particularly at night. However, in recent months, it has become clear that one does not need to go looking for trouble. As the saying goes, it seems that trouble may well find you.

But it's not the norm, it could occur but it's not likely for most citizens to be overly concerned with.

Nor is a fire in your home, or the need to treat an injury, likely. That doesn't mean that any citizen should ignore the possibility. The likelihood of occurrence is low. The potential consequences, on the other hand, are very, very high. That's why I have fire extinguishers and smoke detectors. That's why deadbolts that cannot be opened from indoors are no longer permitted.

Especially after a certain time in one's life.

Well, there are two sides to that. My wife and I are no longer able to count on being able to outrun trouble.

 

[gym]

There is the cut and paste thing again, how long have you been training at this high level. I had several encounters with bad guys in real life and did fine.The tone reaks of weekend warrior . I never said not to train,training is good, but real life is different that drawing from cocealment and hitting your targets effectivlly in a crowd. sounds like movie talk, I hope you don't have to clear a jam under preassure. I can't help hearing salesmanship or perhaps someone who just took a course or read a book. When the guy walks up behind you and smacks you in the head with a bat, I hope you trained for that also. Outrun trouble sound interesting, so you just shoot it out when trouble arrives. If you can outrun it you might just live through it. How many gunfights has the family been in? Oh and the trouble thing has always been around, 40 years of walking around with a pistol or revolver can testify to that. I think Harlem and Bed Stuy, and Corona were pretty tough places to grow up, maybe where you grew up was worse, I doubt it.
. Where are you pulling all tactical weapons out of? Must be tough getting dressed.

 

[smince]

I had several encounters with bad guys in real life and did fine.

I've had a couple myself, and came out alive. That doesn't mean I couldn't have did better, or might want to try to do better if there is a next time

"Luck favors the prepared" I've heard someone say...I kind of like stacking the odds in my favor.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I never said not to train,training is good, but real life is different that drawing from cocealment and hitting your targets effectivlly in a crowd...

Well we're agreed that training is a good thing.

And yes, training is different from real life, and real life includes much more that drawing from concealment. But so what? Training is still good, as you've said. And actually, good training includes things other than drawing and shooting.

...I hope you don't have to clear a jam under preassure....

Good training includes learning how to do that, and practicing it is also a good idea. Some IDPA or USPSA competition might also probably give you some chances to deal with such things under pressure.

...When the guy walks up behind you and smacks you in the head with a bat, I hope you trained for that also....

Sometimes the good guy loses. Sometimes even well trained people don't make it. But that doesn't mean that less training would have produced a better result.

...Outrun trouble sound interesting,...

Yes, that's always the best idea. Avoiding a fight is better than fighting. Fighting is only for when there's not other choice.

 

[Yosemite Sam]

I've done a number of classes, including a couple (handgun and rifle) at Gunsite (http://www.gunsite.com/), a class with Massad Ayoob (http://massadayoobgroup.com/ ), and with Louis Awerbuck (http://www.yfainc.com/, see also http://ezine.m1911.org/awerback.htm).

I've never been to Frontsight, but I've heard they provide good training. I prefer Gunsite myself, because I think Prescott, Arizona is a nicer place to be than Pahrump, Nevada; but that's just a matter of personal taste.

I think professional training is a great idea, and I strongly recommend it.

I had no idea Massad Ayoob left Lethal Force Institute! Totally surprised me. I'd been hoping to take LFI-1 some time personally taught by him. Might have to look into his MAG-40 class but I can't find prices.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

Sprice where are you located? I am sure that someone on this board knows of some good training courses near wherever you live.

I pay $70 for training one day a month in Miami. A couple friends of mine started a shooting club, we all chip in and hire an instructor.

If you are in S. Fla. I would recommend. J.J. Kelley - Former Director of Firearms Training for the Miami Dade Police Department, M.D. Swat sniper, and cop during the cocaine cowboys era. PM me if you want his contact info.

 

[Dravur]

Ya know.... If you want to go train just for the sheer fun of it, go for it. I take a trainign class every once in a while, and I do it to learn new techniques, and I do it because it interests me. That's all that really matters.

It's my money, and i'll spend it how I see fit. If I want to take a carbine class, GREAT!, I will do it. I will more than likely learn something I did not know and i will have FUN.

or maybe I'll become a Secret Squirrel

So, go get some training if you want, have fun and enjoy life.

 

[Kleanbore]

The tone reaks of weekend warrior . I never said not to train,training is good, but real life is different that drawing from cocealment and hitting your targets effectivlly in a crowd. sounds like movie talk,

I do not understand your point--we are both apparently saying that training is good.

I had no idea how important drawing quickly from concealment was until I took the state-required CCW class. A demonstration of the Tueller drill and an explanation that I cannot lawfully produce the weapon until I am in imminent danger made it crystal clear.

Hitting the targets effectively is the only way to stop them, unless merely producing the weapon happens to change the dynamic sufficiently.

I'm not sure where "in a crowd" comes from, but any bullet one fires has the potential to hit the wrong person, and being able to shoot accurately at the required speed can minimize the chance.

Should the situation occur and deadly force become immediately necessary, drawing quickly from concealment will become real life, if one is to survive unscathed and not be locked up for producing the weapon unlawfully. Should the threat not then dissipate, hitting the target effectively becomes real life. Hopefully, not hitting an innocent is real life. It's not "movie talk."

If you can outrun it you might just live through it.

And if I can do so without abandoning a loved one, I must do so, where I live.

How many gunfights has the family been in?

I have stopped home invaders three times.

I think Harlem and Bed Stuy, and Corona were pretty tough places to grow up, maybe where you grew up was worse, I doubt it.

Where I grew up has nothing to do with the situation today. We didn't have two major drug arteries intersecting here, we were not surrounded by meth country, the adjoining city was not number two in the country in terms of violent crime.

However, the neighborhood environment has absolutely nothing to do with what is required in the event that deadly force becomes immediately necessary. One more time, that's drawing from concealment and firing (if still necessary) in about a second and a half, hitting the intended target(s) effectively, and not hitting anyone else. It means doing so, again if and only if necessary, in a manner that minimizes the likelihood of one's being killed or injured by the assailant(s).

Where are you pulling all tactical weapons out of?

One IWB holster, one weapon.

Must be tough getting dressed.

No.

 

[Dr.Mall Ninja]

I just got done watching Black Hawk Down only had to pay 15 bucks!

 

[Corey]

I just got done watching Black Hawk Down only had to pay 15 bucks!

Now thats funny.

I have done several classes at Gunsite (I worked there for awhile, got classes for free). I have also done a Mas Ayoob class and a John Farnham class, as well as some one-on-one training with a few other instructors. I do have a couple of course certificates from Frontsight that I got for free almost 10 years ago, but I have never bothered to use.

Different instructors have different perspectives and ideas. Always good to see more than one way of doing things, even if you are getting an example of how you shouldn't do things.

 

[smallbore]

Sprice - Combat Handguns magazine contains a training calendar and adds for various firearm training classes. My local Borders' & WalMart carry it.