Pros and cons bp in a 30-30

[scrat]

Ya other than the bottle nose case. I know i can work around that. Been reloading and loading for tooo many years. Thinking lead cast 150 grain bullet lubed in my beeswax formula. then cut up some wads felt . pour in black powder 2fg past the bottle up in the narrow straight pack it down slightly then put in the wad enough to be able to use the bullet to compress the load some more. then should be ok. So what would be the pros and cons of doing this. other than shooting bp through my lever action model 94. Has anyone ever done this.

 

[Chawbaccer]

Fowling is about all you would deal with. The 94 was made in 32 special to deal with black powder.
I occasionaly load my Marlin 336 in 35 with black powder, full case and a 158 swc, (all I have). I pretty much tear it down for cleaning, other than that it works pretty good, even with the mg rifling.

 

[Foto Joe]

I'm not sure what you're worried about, the compression or using a '94 for Black Powder? The compression shouldn't be that big of an issue, I've been using a compression die that I got from Midway USA that I can adjust. Before that I had one from TOTW but it wasn't adjustable, you just crunched until it felt right and the ballistics changed dramatically on the Chrony if I wasn't consistant. In your case, you could use a homemade dowel rod with a handle to push the powder down. I personally wouldn't use the bullet for any compression. I finally got a die because I was tired of deformed bullets.

I would assume that the 30-30 case should easily hold the 30gr and if you have trouble getting it to, give some Swiss a try if you can get your hands on some.

As far as the '94 is concerned, I have a Marlin '94 in 44 Spc/Mag that is just waiting for me to have a day off. I've loaded 26gr Swiss in 44 Special brass (not as much as I thought would fit) with 205gr RNFP lead lubed with SPG.

I think the only issue you might have here is the rifling if it is a modern '94. If it has the "Micro Groove" rifling you're probably going to have to send a patched jag down the barrel every dozen or so rounds to clean out the grooves. Other than that, I'd go make the thing filthy and have fun.

 

[scrat]

ok gonna give a try.

 

[higene]

Bp 30-30

I had a Model 94 long barrel made in 1907 and re chambered for 38-55. I fire formed 38-55 cases for reloading by simply firing 30-30 cases thru the rifle. For BP I filled the case with 3f Goex, tapped the case twice, set a lubed 245 cast bullet on top, and closed it up. It was lit by a CCI LRP.

I never chronographed the load. It did shoot well at 50 and 100 yards.

One must remember to get BP cases to soap and water. I put mine in quart jar of H2O and soap. If left they are at least ugly and probably toast to reload.

 

[Pulp]

Like the others said, the barrel will foul up very quickly. I loaded a few with Triple 7 a few years ago and accuracy went out the window after just a few shots. Other folks have posted on the SASS Wire about trying it, they didn't have much luck either. If you could find a Big Lube bullet in .308 or .309 it might help a bit.

 

[rcflint]

I remember reading that the 30-30 was factory loaded with black powder when the rifle was first introduced because the intended smokeless propellant was not ready yet.

 

[BushyGuy]

BP? i thought todays high powered rifles use smokeless powder? :banghead:

 

[higene]

30-30

I use a 180 gr cast gas checked double grease lube bullet with a crimp ring for the roll crimp of the loaded cartridge. I load 777, Pyrodex, and Goex fff in differing amounts relating to the compressibility of the powder.

They shoot OK. The smoke is neat. The brass has to be segregated and cleaned.
Personally I prefer smokeless powder and 170 Gr JRN bullets in a 30-30.

I don't shoot BP in my Pre-64 94 but I do shoot it in a Contender carbine with a 16" tube. That gun will lite up a sunset.

 

[higene]

30-30

Dup post - a reminder to me to go slooo.

 

[Pulp]

.30WCF was never loaded with black powder. It was introduced as a smokeless cartridge. And Winchester did not name it the .30-30. I think Marlin came up with that name, but don't carve that into stone.

 

[junkman_01]

Right on Pulp!

 

[George Mabry]

Does anyone know if Winchester changed the depth of the '94's rifling to adjust for the smokeless powder charges as opposed to the earlier black powder loads?

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Does anyone know if Winchester changed the depth of the '94's rifling to adjust for the smokeless powder charges as opposed to the earlier black powder loads?

No, because the .30-30 was never factory loaded with BP. .30-30 was one of the first two smokeless powder sporting rounds in the US, the other being the .25-35 Winchester. The original names for these rounds were .30 WCF and .25 WCF, respectively. The names ".30-30" and ".25-35" were carryovers from BP terminology, and applied after the rounds were introduced.

The .32 Special was introduced for people who wanted a round similar to the .30 WCF but wanted to reload it with BP. However, factory ammo was loaded with smokeless powder.

 

[junkman_01]

Here's a godd history read of the .30WCF...

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/3030history.htm

 

[Foto Joe]

I think you just ruined my desire to have a 30-30, I'll probably have to justify a 45-70 now.

Ya learn somethin' every day, don't ya?? I figured because it was a 30-30 it was originally Black Powder, go figure.

Now on to the question I have regarding the 30 part. Will the brass hold 30gr of powder??

 

[mykeal]

The 30-30, or originally the .30 Winchester Smokeless, or .30 Winchester Centerfire (.30 WCF), was the first US small bore rifle cartridge designed for smokeless powder. It first appeared in Winchester's catalog in 1895. The -30 did in fact refer to 30 grains of the early smokeless powder. Marlin named the cartridge as .30-30 when they chambered their 1893 for it, not wanting to use the name Winchester.

 

[higene]

38-55

I believe Winchester did produce a 38-55 loaded with BP, but am not positive. 38-55 was scaled down (the case is .10 shorter?), beefed up (loaded to over 2000 fps with smokeless powder and 200 and 220 JFP bullets and called the .375 Winchester, a straight walled 30-30 case. 38-55 is available today in Sharps, NEF Handi Rifle, H&R Buffalo Rifle, 1895 Winchester, and 1885 Hi Wall. .375 is available in 1894 and Thompson Contender (a hell of a pistol cartridge).

 

[w30wcf]

higene,
Yes, Winchester, U.M.C., Rem-Umc, offered the 38-55 black powder cartridge up until the 1930;s or thereabouts.

I have loaded b.p. in the .30-30 with aok results. No doubt, Swiss b.p. is the B.P. to use to keep the fouling soft for repeated shots without cleaning in combination with a multi groove bullet filled with a good quality b.p. lube.
The Lyman 311041 works well. On the average, groups were about 2x the size of smokeless.

As has been said, the 30 W.C.F. (Winchester) .30-30 (U.M.C. / Marlin) was never factory loaded with b.p. but PETERS offered 30-30 Semi-Smokeless cartridges from 1901 to about 1920. Ballistics were similar to the .32-40.

The -30 was gr. weight of the amount of DuPont .30 Caliber smokeless that was used when it was first introduced in 1895. Winchester changed the name to 30-30 as well in 1946 since that was the name it was most identified with.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/3030history.htm

w30wcf

 

[Pulp]

"I think you just ruined my desire to have a 30-30,"

Foto, don't let that stop you. It has it's place in history as is, and while by today's standards it is not a powerhouse, think about this:

"There still ain't no deer can outrun it."

And this from Chuck Hawks:

5. .30-30 Winchester - The .30-30 is one of the top selling rifle cartridges in North America (#1 to #4 on the sales lists, depending on which list you read). Interest in the cartridge remains high, probably partly due to its romantic association with the Old West, and partly because it is one of the best 200 yard deer and medium game cartridges ever designed.

When a cartridge that is 105 years old is still a top seller, there's got to be a reason. Pure and simple, it works.

 

[Foto Joe]

"There still ain't no deer can outrun it."

True 'nuf, but yer assumming that I could hit a bullet with the broad side of a barn.

If I can get my 14 year old grandson out of bed before the crack of noon tomorrow morning I was planning on taking my '94 Marlin in 44 Spc/Mag out and sending its first BP loads down the barrel. He likes to shoot smokeless out of it at clay targets from about 40 yards. He knocks the centers out of them 4 out of 5 times. If only my eyes were still 14 years old.

 

[Slamfire]

What velocities can you get with BP in a 30-30.?

The smokeless loads are 170 grain bullet at 2200 fps?

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Cons - Less velocity, more fouling, more smoke, much harder to clean.

Pros - Can't think of any.

 

[scrat]

ya ya ya. i just wanted to see the pufffff of black smoke coming from the barrel. hehehehhe
once you turn to the darkside your not the same

 

[higene]

.32 Winchester

If I were going to seriously load BP in a 30-30 case, I would pick a Winchester Model 94 in .32 WCF. Cases are made from 30-30 cases by running a 32 expander ball thru clean 30-30 brass. Fill the case to the brim with Swiss 3f and top it off with a 180-200 gr hard cast gas checked .311 bullet. I'd light it with a CCI LRP. I then paint the case head with purple nail polish (so I remember not to load the Purple bullets in my 30-30).