Pros and Cons of TDA vs DAO for concealed carry / self-defense

[Jordan85]

Is a DAK or LEM type trigger any 'safer' than a Glock, XD, etc?

I know they are all safe when carried correctly, but take it with a grain of salt.

From an objective standpoint, which is better?? Which is harder to have an AD with?

To make a long story short: I am in the process of choosing a conceal carry weapon. I have always been uncomfortable with the idea of carrying a glock, xd, etc condition one, though I am becoming more open to the idea. No need for lectures on why its better/ just as safe as any other set-up, I am am not comfortable with it. I am not comfortable with it, which would result in me carrying condition 3 much of the time if i carried such type handgun, which I definitely don't feel comfortable with either due to the limitations you put on yourself carrying in this condition.

With that in mind, I began my search for a TDA (DA/SA) gun, and have basically narrowed my choices down to a few select Sigs and HKs.

At this point I must mention: I have only been shooting a little over two and half years, and the gun I have trained most extensively with has been an XD (SAO) therefore if I decide to go w/ a TDA type trigger I will already be learning to use a new trigger. I have not been shooting so long that a certain type of trigger is engraved in to my habits. Point is, whatever action I choose I will probably be using that action for a long time, as I am a big believer in consistency of habits for when shtf. This is the same reason my collection will probably begin to revolve around one brand line, so as to streamline controls on all my carry pistols. As a sidenote, that is one of the things I am debating w/ the HKs right now. Do I really want to train myself on the euro mag release, when 90% other pistols use the traditional mag release button?

I have read many people saying the H&K LEM and Sig DAK models are the best thing since sliced bread. But for every person that says they love it, there is another person that says they sold off their gun because they couldn't stand the trigger. Confusing, no?

But, for me, I have not become so accustomed to one type of trigger that I won't be able to use one or the other. I get the impression that a lot of the people that don't like the DAK/LEM trigger just don't like changing their ways, whereas in my case, I am just now learning my ways. In other words, I am more concerned w/ the benefits and negatives of the trigger itself when compared to TDA, rather than not being able to adapt to a new trigger system.

Ilike the idea of a heavy trigger on a TDA when carrying for extra safety to help prevent an AD. However, this heavy first shot/light second shot transition is the same reason I somewhat dislike the TDA system in action.

I like the benefits of the LEM/DAK systems, and I hear when learned correctly they can be employed exceptionally, but it seems that if I go w/ one of these triggers, I am disregarding the reason I looked at TDA guns in the first place (heavy trigger to prevent AD).

I guess what I'm really asking is: is there any difference in safety of a LEM/DAK trigger vs a typical Glock, M&P etc trigger? Obviously w/ a TDA you have the heavy initial pull. Is the LEM/DAK trigger longer on the first pull, or heavier etc. than a Glock/XD, or basically the same?

I can see a lot of benefit to the DAO type of trigger, but I can train myself to shoot a TDA correctly and feel comfortable carrying it, whereas at this point I would not feel comfortable carrying a SAO condition one (or a DAO with with trigger as light and short as a glock, XD, etc).

Did that make sense at all?

Also, I apologize if I got confused on some of the conditions of carry in my post.

 

[Jordan85]

no replies?

 

[AK103K]

I think the biggest thing will be what you like and are willing to practice with to become competent.

They all work, and its probably more personal choice and opinion than anything else as to why one is better than another.

I carried a C&L 1911 for about 25 years and never had an issue with a SAO trigger. I shoot all my revolvers DAO, so DA isnt an issue for me.

I switched to SIG's mainly because I got tired of trying to find a 1911 I didnt have to fiddle with (I'd probably still be carrying one if I did). I've used both DAO and traditional DA/SA SIG's, and have settled on the later, just because they are more prevalent, usually cheaper, and I have more of them, which keeps things simple. No matter what I pick up, everything is the same. Just like conditioning yourself to sweep the safety off on a 1911 as the gun is drawn, you just have to condition yourself to decock. Its no biggie and requires no thought once your used to doing it.

 

[Kor]

I guess what I'm really asking is: is there any difference in safety of a LEM/DAK trigger vs a typical Glock, M&P etc trigger? Obviously w/ a TDA you have the heavy initial pull. Is the LEM/DAK trigger longer on the first pull, or heavier etc. than a Glock/XD, or basically the same?

There is no "safety" in the trigger, there is only safety in the mind and hands of the person holding the gun. If you're expecting the weight of the trigger to prevent you from accidentally firing the gun, understand that in a highly-stressful situation where adrenaline is coursing through your veins, your finger will probably be completely unable to tell the difference between a 5-lb Glock trigger, an 8-lb LEM/DAK trigger, or a 12-lb TDA trigger - the only universally safe solution is to keep your finger off of the trigger until you have made a conscious decision to shoot. Mechanical solutions to deficiencies in training are seldom successful.

Since you've set yourself on the SIG or H&K pistols, I would suggest this:

- Buy/rent/borrow whichever model you like best, and familiarize yourself with it at the range - shoot at least 200 rounds through that gun, not necessarily all in one sitting.
- Next, attend a 2-day(minimum) entry-level defensive/tactical handgun course with that gun - short of actually getting into gunfights, this is the best way to assess your performance level with a given brand/model of handgun.
- If you want, also shoot a couple of IDPA matches with your chosen handgun.

If after consultation with your instructor, and after evaluation of your performance in a class or a match, you decide to switch from TDA to DAO(or vice-versa), the SIG and H&K designs offer the option for a trained armorer/gunsmith to do so. This service should cost under $200 for parts & labor. My point being, try it out yourself first, instead of relying on free internet advice from total strangers to determine what will work best for YOU...

 

[Jordan85]

I haven't 'set' myself in Sig or H&K. I just like the heavy initial pull to make sure it is going bang only when I want it to go bang...

It seems like it would be harder for an object, or shaky hands, to discharge a DA/SA trigger in DA than a trigger on a glock or M&P, despite the 'trigger safeties' they both have. Thats why I was wondering if the LEM / DAK models had more slack in the trigger on the first shot

 

[Loosedhorse]

Facts are the best way to kill theories.

I agree with the idea of trying things out and seeing what you like (and what you shoot well with) before you decide what's best.

Let's see, so far I've tried: SA auto, SA revolver, DA revolver, DAO revolver, DAO auto, TDA Auto (with safety, decocker, or both), DAK, Safe-Action (standard, New York, and New York +), Continuous Action (squeeze-cocker), and SA derringer. I think you'd agree that this is NOT an exhaustive list.

I like Continuous Action, SA auto, and Safe-Action (New York). I generally carry Safe-Action (New York) and/or DAO revolver (trigger is not the only consideration--the gun with the better trigger may NOT always have the caliber, concealability, or felt-recoil that I also want).

And what is it with DAK? First trigger pull is relatively lighter, and second pull heavier? Unless you let the trigger reset ALL the way forward, in which case it gets ligher again. Two different reset points? Greater minds than mine are needed to figure why this is necessary, or even helpful.

Which is practically safer? Depends on your training. It has been opined that DAO or similar alphabet soup is LEGALLY safer that TDA or SA, as you're safer from claims that you fired accidentally because of a "light" trigger.

But I think DAO vs. LEM vs. DAK vs. Safe-Action (New York +) vs. whatever's next is mostly driven by concerns of marketing to large police departments. That said, I personally find Safe Action (New York) has a predictable let-off after take up, whereas DAK is mushily unpredictable.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

It is not just the initial or first shot you have to worry about. If you have a TDA pistol, have fired one or more shots and (depending on the design) forget to decock or apply a safety, you now have a loaded, fully cocked pistol in your hand. That trigger pull is going to be far lighter than any DAO variant.

 

[george29]

All good guns, get what you feel is your best choice, practice ONE type of carry, be consistant with it so that you don't need to think about it at all and last off, get the right type of holster, preferably something that completely covers the actions and trigger so that you will not have a ND.
If it was my choice for a pistol, I would go with either a 1911, an FN MK III or a Glock. Since I don't own a pistol I carry a 642 with a holster that completely covers the trigger.

 

[Kor]

With that in mind, I began my search for a TDA (DA/SA) gun, and have basically narrowed my choices down to a few select Sigs and HKs.

Sorry - I thought that meant you had your mind set on either a SIG or an H&K.

My recommendation still stands - take a class first, shoot a couple of matches, then decide what works best for you. You're concerned about handling your gun under stress - the best way to do that is to take a class from a professional instructor, or shoot in competition against other shooters of equal or greater ability than yours. Slow-fire/static range practice teaches you next to nothing about handling guns under stress. It's like trying to pass a chemistry or shop class by only reading the textbook - ya gotta do the lab work in order to understand how things really work.

It seems like it would be harder for an object, or shaky hands, to discharge a DA/SA trigger in DA than a trigger on a glock or M&P, despite the 'trigger safeties' they both have.

Rephrasing the question does not change my answer...

Worried about an object snagging your trigger? Then carry your gun in a good quality holster that covers the trigger-guard completely. Problem solved - end of discussion.

Worried about an AD from shaky hands? Train yourself to diligently keep your finger away from the trigger unless and until you make the conscious, deliberate decision to shoot. Problem solved - end of discussion.

Don't try to make your gun safer than you are - that's the line that gun-grabbing politicians try to push when they agitate for "smart guns", trigger-locks, "safety devices" and Consumer Product Safety Commission review of firearms. It's fear-driven fuzzy thinking, and I hate fear-driven fuzzy thinking. IMO it displays a lack of trust in the abilities of the individual, and I despise it as such.

All guns will fire when loaded and their triggers are pressed - get used to it, and train yourself accordingly. To paraphrase the old Texas Ranger, "Of course it's dangerous - I wouldn't carry it if it weren't."

 

[skinewmexico]

I'm just shocked you've been shooting an XD for 2-1/2 years, and are afraid to carry it. I can't even imagine the situation where you hit the trigger and grip safety at the same time in a holster. Go shoot IDPA for a few months, you'll get over it.

 

[Jordan85]

actually, I do shoot IDPA w/ it. well, not sure its IDPA, but a practical shooting club my local range has.... and I am comfortable carrrying the XD, but the catch 22 here is after shooting my XD and my friends glock 23 over the past couple of years I am convinced that I am one of the few people that actually prefers the ergos of the glock grip to the XD, so I would be inclined towards glock.

On the other hand I do shoot well enough w/ my XD to compete and not make a total fool of myself, so it must work on a certain level for me. Might have to go hold a baby XD next time I'm in the gun shop

 

[Shawn Dodson]

TDA? - for Christ's sake it's "Double Action (DA)"! No need to add farking "traditional."

SAO? - It's "Single Action (SA)"! It doesn't need "only" because it doesn't function any other way!

DA/SA = Double Action. Yes it fires the first shot in DA mode, and then the recoiling slide cocks the hammer allowing the second shot to be fired in SA mode. "DA/SA" is a conscendingly stupid terminology to describe a common DA automatic pistol.

IMO Kor is correct. If you want to use a common pistol design across the board, which I believe is a good decision, then if you prefer Glock I suggest you buy a Glock and obtain competent professional instruction to build and maintain your confidence in the Glock design. If you buy something else, and then decide Glock is the better gun afterall, then you invested time and effort with the non-Glock, as well as money for accessories, which you'd have to purchhse again for the Glock. Learn to confidently operate your pistol and keep you finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard until you've made the decision to shoot.

Cheers!

 

[redneckrepairs]

Ill just speak from MY experiences . I have carried for a while now, Of and on ( mostly on ) since 81 both as part of the job and as a personal choice . I " broke in " on revolvers as a mandate, and they served me well for many years though i shot a 1911 or browning hp for recreation . Sometime after the " wonder 9 revelution " I gained the ability to carry an auto . Over the years i carried many pistols , and today i carry a da long trigger auto ( i put it this way because it is a SA auto , it only functions one way tho the trigger in no way relates to say a 1911 which is also sa , there is no such thing as DAO since Double action describes a weapon which may be cocked or may be fired from rest thus double action ) . As a personal preferance i dont care for " true double action " autos because not only does my second shot string , but under pressure i have found that i tend to slap the trigger on the first short pull shot . Now before anyone screams practice to me know that I carried and shot a sig 220 for a few years and never broke the habit . No matter how you call the pistols action i want the trigger to reset to the same place every time . Nowadays i carry either one of my Kahrs , a HK p7, or a 1911/hp . I get along fine at defensive ranges with any of the above . I dont have an M&P , XD, Glock , Ect.. because i simply dont like thick guns for ccw . Point is that i really dont care how far the trigger pull is , or for that matter ( within reason how heavy it is ) as long as its smooth and the same reset every time .