Ptr 91?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tony50ae

Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
294
Location
Abbeville, LA
So going to have some extra money for a new gun. First thought an get AR15 since I do not own one yet. I have a mini 14 though and love it! Still gotta an AR one day. Being in the military I am very familiar with it. However came across the PTR in a gun magazine and looked into it more. Found that Atlantic firearms carries them. Found a model I like. From looking at reviews on you tube seems like a decent rifle for the cost. Like the looks and the heritage it came from ( HK 91). So any thoughts? Now I swore I wouldn't buy any more guns in yet another caliber,( Own 15 guns with 12 different calibers) but just might have to make an exception. :D

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/ptr-91-a3s-308-rifle-detail.html?Itemid=0
 
15 guns in 12 calibers...I think that sounds about right...well the ratio does, but it gets interesting when the ratio starts going the other way...when you start stocking multiple calibers for one gun like a contender or handi combo gun because they truly are different barrels, or even if you buy swappable revolver rounds like a 44 mag which can shoot mags, specials, and russian (the round, not the people, though it's good at that too), or swappable chambers like 9mm/357 blackhawks, or 22s/l/LR convertible to 22 mag guns like the single six.

Let's leave it at this, I own a few more than you do...not sure how many at the moment without counting them up, but I guarantee that I stock twice that many calibers of ammo.

Oh...and after looking at the rifle it's very interesting but seems like it may be a bit higher than it should be. Military guns should be available which are made by HK and should be of equal or higher quality for the same or even less money. I do like that style rifle though and for new production it may be worth that money. With new products you never know until the price moves....if it goes up then it's likely a good gun you got at a bargain price, it's prices drop you may have bought a clunker.
 
Last edited:
PTR makes a good rifle, and at a fraction of the cost of a real HK91. Just keep in mind, they're heavy rifles, and have a bit of kick to them. While most of the time it can be reloaded, they do dent the brass, and eject about to about 20' away give or take a few. They have the best iron sights to come on any rifle hands down. Those are my thoughts.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1569.JPG
    IMG_1569.JPG
    44.1 KB · Views: 60
PTR's are nice rifles and $900 is a fair price. I have seen a few used ones going for more than that. I love this type of rifle. X2 on beat up brass though. Fluted chamber really jacks up softer brass. One of the great things about these are $4 aluminum mags. Can stock up on the cheap.
 
Thanks guys on your thoughts. I read about the brass issue and not worried as I don't reload. I do think the sights are nice. As far as kick not too worried, I own a Garand and with its steel butt plate, I do alright with the recoil. Thanks js8588, didn't know that. Still like the powder coat finish on the one I was looking at though. I got time to decide. In the meantime more research and will see what others might have to say as well. :) And Westkentucky, I can't imagine stocking up on double the calibers I have! 12 is a lot as it is lol!
 
As a person who has a good bit of experience with genuine HK products, and several variants of the 91 platform, I would save up my $$ and buy the real deal. I have not at all been impressed by the several PTR weapons I have tried, and watched others use in various classes and range exercises. Granted, most of those were earlier versions, and suffered from a number of different problems, namely ammunition compatibility, failures to extract and eject, and really bad triggers.
True, magazines are really dirt cheap, but from an ergonomic standpoint they belong in a museum. I'll reach for that M1A or Ruger SR762 before I go with the HK platform during a crisis.
 
Originally posted by:WestKentucky
Military guns should be available which are made by HK and should be of equal or higher quality for the same or even less money.
When did you last check H&K prices?
1973? :confused:

PTR's are nice weapons, but don't expect the same QC and attention to detail that you'd get with an actual H&K product. My son purchased one of their "GI" versions a couple of years back that came with a canted front sight. It was so bad that we couldn't get the POI within six inches of the bull at 25 yards!

PTR fixed it fairly quickly and painlessly, but I was less than impressed with the level of their quality control. The rifle shoots great now, 140 grain Custom Competition bullets over IMR 4895 shoot close to an inch at 100 yards. The rifle has never jammed or otherwise hiccuped the whole time he's owned it and the bolt gap was, and still is, perfect.

I know that every manufacturer ooccasionally makes a mistake, my worry is that if they can screw up something as simple as welding a front sight on straight and not have it caught and corrected before shipping the rifle out, what else might they screw up on?

A rifle at that price point shouldn't have a front sight that looks like it was welded on by one of Century's drunken monkeys.
 

Attachments

  • PTR 91, Canted Sight.jpg
    PTR 91, Canted Sight.jpg
    47.9 KB · Views: 155
I guess everybody has his own experiences. I like my PTR 91, and I have an early JLD model. It does not like tar sealed surplus ammo, but I haven't been able to find South African or British surplus for awhile, though truthfully I haven't been looking.

I used to use mine in HM class in 3 gun, and it performed flawlessly with my hand loads and was as accurate or more accurate than I am. That said, I had a number of upgrades performed to the rifle, including a paddle magazine release which I see as a must have, and a trigger job by Bill Springfield. It is a fun rifle to shoot.

I have received a lot of joy in purchasing accessories for it. the 22 lr sub caliber kit is a lot of fun, the FeroZ24 scope and the night vision are nice accessories. Since I reload, I have found the port buffer a must have item, as while there is nothing one can do about the chamber fluting marks on the brass, the port buffer prevents the "HK smile", crescent shaped dent in the case walls caused by impacting the back of the ejection port. The reach to the safety/selector is a bit on the longish side, so I installed an ambidextrous safety on mine, which makes going from "fire" to "safe" a little easier.

Maybe see if you can find one at a LGS and hold it and manipulate it and see if it is something you like before purchasing one.
 
The PTR91F I shot recently was 2012 or 2013 manufacture, i dont recall. The flute issue has been worked out it had twelve deep flutes and extracted well. Ran all kinds of ammo. About 1.5 moa accurate maybe a little better. Definitely as accurate as an off the shelf AR. Fit and finish was very nice. I dont have any trigger time behind the HK. It doesnt get much nicer than the PTR. Sure the stock trigger sucks. Thats by design I think.
 
I had the one that Springfield made, basically same style and function. I wouldn't buy another. It was just underwhelming as a firearm. Shot every time, was clunky, poor ergonomics, accuracy was lacking, heavy.
I do have an M1A1 and a S&W AR and of those 2 I'd take the AR.
 
Hi Tony50ae

CDNN has them on sale right now for $799.99 smoking deal in my book. Cheap mags to be had. What's not to like.

WB
 
A rifle at that price point shouldn't have a front sight that looks like it was welded on by one of Century's drunken monkeys.

This is The High Road and what has a drunken monkey ever done to you to deserve an insult like that?

Having owned a Cetme "crafted" by Century and being a machinist and welder I do wonder how they could do some things as bad as they do, without intent.
 
Personally, I love the 7.62 NATO round. How much? Well, I own M1As, FALs, AR-10s a MAS-49/56 (one of the good ones thanks to careful research and examination before buying one) and a PTR-91 GI. While my personal favorite is the M1A as being the top performer in a battle rifle, the PTR isn't a bad rifle either. Mine was good to go out of the box and I got a pretty good deal from CDNN at $899 with 10 surplus mags and a sling, scope and mount of questionable origins but I didn't buy it for the extras other than the mags. Actually, I think they are selling the GI models for $799 right now so that's an even better deal but it doesn't come with a lot of the extras mine came with earlier this year.
Now while I already stated that the M1A is the top performer in my book, let's concentrate on the HK design for this post. They are accurate, reliable and built to take abuse. Not a bad deal in a battle rifle. However, there are a few things that can be improved with the PTR rifles.
First, the slim handguards aren't the best at turning back the heat. I put on a wide handguard on mine that does a better job of reducing the hot handguard problem as well as covering the hot trunion area of the receiver as well. The down side is that it's not as fast to actuate the cocking handle. The solution was an HK-21 machine gun cocking handle that is larger and easier to grasp. Works great with the wider handguards.
Next is the safety lever is next to impossible to operate without shifting your grip unless you have the thumb of an orangutan! The solution here is the extended safety lever from RTG firearms. It's not perfect and I'd rate it on par with a metric FAL safety lever that still falls short of the AR-10 selector lever or the safety tab of the M1A but still FAR better than the stock selector lever!
Let's face it, the magazine release on the HK91 style rifles to include the PTR SUCKS!!! Unless you have the index finger of the same aforementioned orangutan, you are going to be shifting your grip a LOT to get at the magazine release. This is due to the fact that the original magazine release similar to the M1A and FAL on the original G3 rifle had to be omitted in order to conform to the laws preventing a G3 full auto magazine release being used on semi-auto only rifles. The solution isn't what I would consider something for a home gunsmith to attempt but you can drill into the receiver with a small pin and bushing that will allow you to use the paddle magazine release tab as in the original design. I have plans on sending mine off to Bill Springfield to have this work done. Once you have this done, removing the magazine is no harder than a FAL or M1A.
Another issue is the sharper recoil of the HK when compared to other rifles. This is due to the delayed blowback design rather than the gas operation of other designs. The solution is either a heavy buffer like those offered by RTG firearms or even a German 2-stage heavy buffer available from RTG or HKParts. The heavier buffer slows down the bolt carrier slamming back and makes the recoil a little more in line with it's gas operated counterparts being a bit more gentle on the shoulder. Not a big deal if you are used to heavy calibers but still an improvement.
There is also the issue to most American shooters of the lack of a bolt hold open device that will lock the bolt open after the last round is fired. Sorry, but that's part of the design and there isn't a solution that I am aware of to counter this. This tends to be a European thing like the British L1A1, AK or FN FS2000 to name a couple designs that lack this feature. With the L1A1, a simple swap of a bolt catch is a fix (I did this with mine) but with designs like the HK91, AK or FS2000, it's just not in the cards. Sorry. :(
As far as the HK design being not "reloader friendly", there is some truth to it. Yes, the fluted chamber does leave some ugly marks on the brass and to be honest, I have only fired non-reloadable FN surplus ammo through mine and being Berdan primed, reloading hasn't been an issue. However, after cleaning a few pieces of fired brass, they make not look pretty but the chamber flutes are not something I would see being an issue to reloading. The biggest problem is in finding them again! Mine throws brass about 7 yards away in the 1-2 o'clock position. Again, the solution is from RTG in a brass deflector that prevents the case creases against the ejection port (mine hasn't had this problem) but also tends to deflect them downward and a lot easier to find. Something to consider if you ever do plan to reload.
I will disagree with ttarp in that I don't care for the sights. Yes, they are simple and rugged but you will either need the original tool or a pair of forceps and a screw driver to adjust them, particularly when it comes to your initial adjustments for elevation. They are a colossal PITA to adjust when zeroing but once zeroed, are pretty straight forward as long as you are not trying to adjust your dope for wind at longer ranges. Sort of like an AK or FAL, you set the range then hold off for wind conditions. Compare that to the iron sights on an M1A or AR-10 where you can dial in elevation AND windage, these sights come up short. I guess living in North Dakota where ranges are almost always long and wind isn't uncommon, I ding designs like the HK, FAL, AK and others in this regard.
All-in-all, the PRT-91 or HK91 design isn't all that bad as long as you can either make modifications like the safety lever, magazine release (my 2 biggest gripes with the design) and what not or can live with things like cruder sights, lack of a bolt hold open device or rigorous ejection the design displays. Oh, and as far as the weight, to quote "The Thirteenth Warrior", get stronger! :evil: The price of the PTR-91 is VERY appealing for a battle rifle that has a very good heritage and would make a fine SHTF rifle. We look today at the AR-15 as being a very modular deign (and it is) but HK was making modular rifles in the form of the HK91 long before the AR-15 was even thought of when it comes to being modular.
 
Having owned both an original HK91 and a franken-FAL (mixed metric and Imperial parts) I can agree with all the cons listed by Grunt regarding the HK/PTR. The safety lever and magazine release issue made it a No-Go for me once I found the FAL.
A new DSA FAL is has a MSRP just over 1K, I'm not sure on street prices
14141_1_.jpg

Enough countries liked it that it far, Far outsold the HK worldwide. I think that says something.
 
Oh, I agree that the FAL is stock form is superior to the HK but with a few modifications, the HK is still a decent battle rifle and with the low price CDNN has on them, it's not a bad option.
 
I have an original hk91 and a friend bought a PTR about a year ago. While it isn't an HK, I was really surprised at how well made it was. It shot great at the range with no problems and if I were in the market, I wouldn't hesitate to pick one up.
 
@ Jackal: Do you mind disclosing where you got the $670 deal?

@ stubbicatt: other than the canted front sight (fixed gratis by PTR, including shipping both ways), we really haven't had any issues with the rifle that aren't related to its original H&K (or CETME) design.

The issues as I see them are:

#1- I can't figure out why a weapon designed after WWII didn't include a last round "bolt hold open" to let you know when you're dry and facilitate faster reloads. I know the AK suffers from the same problem, but at least it's "bolt release" isnt two feet away from the fire control group! Heck, the Czech VZ58 was adopted before the G3 and even though it's a Godless "commie" gun, it has a last round bolt hold open feature and far better ergonomics than the G3/PTR91.

#2- The rifle is harder on cases than Henry the VIIIth was on wives. It's bad enough that it smacks 'em around, dents 'em and leaves striations in the neck and shoulder, WHY does it have to add insult to injury by thickly coating them in carbon from case mouth to primer? Seriously, a hundred cases fired from the PTR messes up my polishing media worse than 2000 cases fired from my M1A.

#3- Both my son and I have much larger than average hands, but neither one of us can operate the safety without completely letting go of the pistol grip.

The button magazine release seems to work great for us, in fact it's the ONLY control on the rifle (other than the trigger) that can be easily accessed by the right hand while still holding the pistol grip. Why is the installation of a "paddle" type mag release seen as such a necessity by so many users?

In my opinion, the main strengths of the G3 design are reliability (right up there with the AK), accuracy (at least as good as an early M16), and low production cost.
That's about it as far as plusses go. The sights are OK, but a pain to adjust and nowhere near as good as those on a Garand or M14.

If I were choosing a rifle to bet my life on, I'd probably pick a quality M14 or FAL type rather than the PTR. But if cost is a factor and you can live with the poor ergonomics and controls, a current production PTR 91 wouldn't be a bad choice. If you decide to get one, do a serious QC check on it (including checking the bolt gap and chamber fluting) before you shoot it. I'd also advise stocking up on mags NOW. They've already doubled in price over the last couple of years and once all the surplus mags are gone, you'll learn what HK really stands for.
High Kost!
 
This is The High Road and what has a drunken monkey ever done to you to deserve an insult like that?

Sorry, but my psychiatrist strongly advised me to NEVER discuss the drunken monkey incident outside of his office... :uhoh:
 
@ Jackal
Thanks!
Unfortunately. I just checked their site and the cheapest they're showing them for now is $828.
 
I am glad that so many prefer FALs and M14s. Leaves more 91's for the rest of us!:D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top