Pushing my 10mm glock20, need a better barrel

[Float Pilot]

I two 10mm in years past... Delta Elite and one of the first Glock 20s. Both of which I sold. The delta I basically shot to death after about 2500-3000 rounds of duty ammo. A lot of it the old original Norma 200 grain stuff. (Had a Bren-10 on order that never came, but did get 800 rounds of Norma ammo.)

Anyway, my new G-20SF is meant as a multi-purpose firearm for when I am out flying. Something with enough zap for four legged critters and enough rounds for the ever increasing number of $%^hole two legged critters that I run into out in the bush.

I have been pushing 200 grain bullets up to 1,200 fps , but I am seeing signs of brass bulge near the unsupported chamber area. Plus any loads over 1,130 fps start to show crappy groups in this pistol...

So two things are in order...

1. I need a 22 pound recoil spring...and guide.
2. I need a barrel with better chamber support.

I will usually be shooting 200 grain full jacketed flat nose bullets. Shooting lead is not a big concern...

Who makes a good G-20 10mm barrel that will give better chamber support? I do not need extra length or ports.

 

[M1key]

I am partial to KKM match barrels. My G20 wears a KKM in 5-inch with a Wolff 22# spring and steel guide rod. Very happy with this set-up.

 

[Float Pilot]

Does your KKM reduce the chance of a brass blow-out?
Did you use a Wolf spring?

I see a couple other companies called Storm Lake and EFK... You heard or know anything about them...?

 

[Zoogster]

KKM seems to be the best barrel.

They also cost nearly twice what some of the less expensive ones cost.



1200 FPS on a 200 grain is about close to what I would max out at.
You can get away with more but if you have moisture, ice, dust, blood, the barrel in contact with what you are shooting, or something else gets in the barrel when you need it most and are using loads that are just short of exploding without that in the barrel...
You want some margin of error to account for such things in a defensive gun.

Plus any loads over 1,130 fps start to show crappy groups in this pistol...

That is about the speed of sound. That has more to do with the shape of the round and transition from supersonic to subsonic in flight.
As you certainly notice the front of the bullet is flat as is the .40S&W, not rounded or pointed like many calibers. This does result in more tissue resistance and destruction, better hard surface penetration (by keeping the bullet oriented forward after impact so it bites into rather than gets partially deflected by) like bone or automobile glass, but worse airflow.
At around the speed of sound the flat edges get turbulence that exceeds the speed of sound even after the bullet drops below the speed of sound.
Meaning some of the airflow is still in supersonic to subsonic transition after the bullet has finished the transition.
So the transition from supersonic to subsonic disturbs the bullet in flight in more ways than one.

It is not a limitation of the pistol, but rather a part of working with a round that transitions from supersonic to subsonic in flight and does not have the best aerodynamics.

If you work with rounds that stay at least 50 FPS above or below the speed of sound for the duration of the distance you are shooting over the groups should not open up as much.

 

[M1key]

Storm Lake makes them for EFK I believe. Lone Wolf also makes a decent barrel for about $100.

IMO, Barsto and KKM are two of the best. They are pricey, too.

Yes, the KKM has a tighter match chamber and more case support.

 

[CamaroLovr]

Your running the risk of having severe reliability issues with such tight chamber tolerances as well. Target guns don't have to be 100% reliable so they are as tight as possible. An AK ain't the most accurate thing in the world but it's sure as hell reliable cause its loose and shakey.

 

[M1key]

KKM chambers are not that tight, not as tight as Barsto barrels.

Use the barrel's chamber as drop-in case gauge.

With properly spec'ed ammo, the KKM runs fine.





M

 

[Thorgrim]

Have you priced an EAA Witness? I've seen a lot of good reports on them, and after selling whatever you have (I'm uncertain from your post, but I think it's a replacement Glock) you might even net enough to get the EAA for little difference, maybe less than buying and fitting a new barrel to your present pistol.

That's just pondering, I've never shot any of the 10mm. I desperately want one of them to prove to be golden as I'm an old .41 RM fan who prefers autos ... but only if they'll take full-bore loads that bring them into or at least near the .41 RM ballistics. The .41 is my personal Holy Grail, if only it were made in an autoloader. Good ballistics (especially penetration and expansion with the right bullet), a muzzle blast that hurts my unprotected ears in hunting situations far less than either the .357 or the .44RM for some strange reason, and I've never had one that didn't shoot better than I can. I'm hoping the 10mm will prove to be the auto equivalent. Wish me (and you) luck!

 

[KBintheSLC]

I use a 6" Lone Wolf barrel for shooting reloads and hunting with my G20. It is a good barrel with a tight chamber for a good price. However, I would not use it or any aftermarket barrel for defensive use. The Glock factory barrel is going to give you the best reliability. I wouldn't worry about the brass bulge at all. It is only an issue if you start reloading that brass multiple times. I have fired plenty of the hottest 10mm loads through the stock barrel and have never had a problem with it.

A 22# spring with a steel or tungsten guide rod is a good addition.

..

 

[Float Pilot]

Have you priced an EAA Witness? I've seen a lot of good reports on them,

I have seen two up here with cracked slides. Plus several folks here in Alaska who have purchased them were far from happy with the companies customer service.

I managed to pick up this latest Glock 20SF for a pretty good deal. Make that a very good deal... I can spend $150 on a new barrel and still have less than $600 into the whole deal... And I received 3 spare mags and 150 rounds of factory ammo in the original deal.

I wouldn't worry about the brass bulge at all.

Case blow-out is what I am worrying about...

 

[MightyTygart]

So two things are in order...

1. I need a 22 pound recoil spring...and guide.
2. I need a barrel with better chamber support.

I will usually be shooting 200 grain full jacketed flat nose bullets. Shooting lead is not a big concern...

I too want a barrel with better chamber support and something that will allow me to achieve the maximum velocity of these full bore 10mm loads. I am wanting to do the six inch barrel and long slide but I have read many reports that have been less than successful. Luckily I do not have enough money right now to force my hand on purchasing anything.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Case blow-out is what I am worrying about...

Then keep your loads within cartridge specs. No barrel on earth will make over-loaded ammo safe to shoot. The stock barrel is designed to safely fire full-power 10mm ammo up to max SAAMI pressure specs. I have been running loads at 37,000 PSI with 200g @ 1200 fps for a while now. I have never even seen so much as a crack in the brass, let alone a case head separation. Just FYI, this whole Glock barrel issue is blown way out of proportion by internet "experts" who blame the gun when their double-charged reloads blow it up. You will not have a so-called "blow-out" unless you significantly over-load your ammo into old, work-hardened brass. Firing new factory ammo, or max handloads using serviceable brass in the factory barrel is perfectly safe. These fears over Glock barrels are not based on reality my friend. They are based on regurgitated, recycled web sludge that is not to be confused with actual "information".

Beyond that, if you plan on reloading 10mm, get yourself a barrel with a tighter chamber to extend the life of your rare 10mm brass. But for self defense use, I would never use anything but the factory Glock barrel. It will always work.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I have been pushing 200 grain bullets up to 1,200 fps , but I am seeing signs of brass bulge near the unsupported chamber area. Plus any loads over 1,130 fps start to show crappy groups in this pistol...

You will see bulges in the brass of any Glock... even the wimpy loads. It does not mean you are in danger. Also, if you are going for small groups, you need to load down, not up. Hotrod ammo is not conducive to the best accuracy.

 

[Float Pilot]

Good to know..
Although my old G20 seemed to be much more accurate with warm loads. It liked the hot Cor-Bon stuff and the old Norma factory ammo.
Of course shooting wimpy loads from a 10mm is like driving a Camero only in school zones..

I personally have seen three Glocks blow up, two model 23s and one Model 21. All were Dept issue guns from my old career. BUT, I personally believe all three were operator error and that the shooters loaded a stray round of 9mm or 40 into the mags.
I was running the range on on three occasions and in the first instance somebody had bought some 9mm to the range that was truncated flat nose like the 40 ammo.
I was knelling between two shooters running a stress drill when the G23 blew apart. I checked the other mags that were on the shooters belt and he had a couple of 9mm rounds half way through his load of 40s.
He had a failure to fire and did a tap-rack-BOOM. My theory is that the errant 9mm round went down the barrel part way and thus the failure to fire. Then he loaded a perfectly good 40 into the chamber and launched that baby right into the 9mm that was blocking the barrel.
The 45 blow up a year later was probably the result of a 40 loaded halfway through a 45 mag and the same thing happened.

The other G23 that blew apart is still a mystery. Our dept bought a huge batch of orange box re-manufactured ammo from Montana (against my memo) and I think that maybe a squib round jammed a bullet into the barrel and the next round blew it apart.
There were only two shooters on the range that day with the same guns and ammo so who knows..

 

[M1key]

G20 is quite accurate with the full-house 200gr FMJ and XTP loads.

 

[Wildbillz]

I use a Barsto barrel in a G22. Never had a problume with it. Fully supported so it don't distort your brass. Quality Mfg and shoots better then I am capable of. Not Cheap though.

WB

 

[Buck Snort]

Float Pilot wrote: "The delta I basically shot to death after about 2500-3000 rounds of duty ammo."

WHAT?

 

[Float Pilot]

WHAT?

Yeap, A bunch of us made a group dept. order for Delta Elites back in 1987 when they first announced them. Pretty much the same group of us who had all put down money on Bren Tens that never showed up. We had all bought a huge batch of the old hot Norma ammo. Thinking we would have Bren Tens to shoot it with.... Although one guy actually did receive his pistol in around 1985, with one mag that did not work so well.
My Delta had the open notch in the frame. After about 2500 to 3000 rounds, most of it the old hot Norma stuff, It had lots of peening and what looked like a crack in the frame coming out of the corner of the notch cut. It was sent back to Colt who replaced the frame. It felt like they installed a heavier spring as well. Since the gun was gone for a matter of months, I bought a Sig 220. I sold the Delta shortly thereafter without ever firing it again.

 

[M1key]

I heard of the Colt Deltas cracking frames. Kept me from buying one several years ago. Bought a Glock 20 instead...the first Glock I ever kept. Still have it.



M

 

[Float Pilot]

Colt changed a few things and supposedly the problem was solved.
The replacement frame on mine was a little different. They were slow, but that gun came back from Colt looking like it was brand new... Even the holster wear marks were gone..

 

[Casefull]

The slide in the glock 20 has a lot of mass in the area behind the barrel. I think the mass of the slide is a factor in making the 20 last with heavy loads as compared to some of the other 10mm guns. I shoot a couple of eaa witness pistols which give the case bulges also but are easier to shoot accurately than a glock. For carry use I keep the stock barrel with loads in the 180g at 1250 fps. It seems the factory barrel feeds a little better than the wolf and heavier spring that I use for hotter loads. I would spend some time with an aftermarket barrel getting the feed problems solved if I was going to shoot a lot of heavy bullets at high velocity.

 

[Drail]

You guys are crazy!

 

[Float Pilot]

I just ran a bunch of the fired brass through my calibers.

It was all swelled up to 0.435
New it is 0.422

Instead of swelling or a bulge in one spot, it is actually all around. I placed a couple loaded rounds from various manufactures into the chamber (barrel sitting on my bench) and the factory rounds are really pretty loose. They will rattle around some...

I weighed 3 brands of empty primed brass. Star-line weighs 75 grains, Hornady weighs 76.6 grains and old Remington weighs 74 grains.

I just found a partial box for the Norma ammo that I bought back in the 1980s.. I still have to check that stuff for chambering.

I sold 500 rounds of Norma once fired brass a few months ago when I figured I would never have another 10mm. What a dumb-mule...

Until I get a tighter chambered barrel, I will stick with thicker brass and back off my loads to medium hot....

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I run a KKM for the same reasons and have no complaints. I bought mine drop in from Glockmeister with a stainless guide captured guide rod and both 20 and 22 pound ISMI springs. The pistol ran well with both setups, though I prefer the 20 pound spring. The 22 pound does keep brass closer. No reliability issues from either of these setups and the KKM Precision through about 1000 rounds--about half of which were a 180 gr Hornady over a max listed charge of AA9, IIRC--and the other half were Double Tap 180 gr FMJ-Match or 180 gr Gold Dot (when they still offered them), or 175 gr Silvertips. Most of those were using the 20 pound spring.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Until I get a tighter chambered barrel, I will stick with thicker brass and back off my loads to medium hot....

Honestly, after experimenting with with some fireball handloads early on, I have found that "medium-hot" is all around better anyway. The extra 50-100 fps you gain will not make or break the fight for you. And, it comes at great expense, including big muzzle flash and stout recoil. I still load my hunting rounds that way (very hot), because I usually only shoot one round and its over. But for defensive loads, I use the 175g Winchester Silvertip factory load as an example to create a more shootable and practical cartridge.