Quadrant sight versus leaf sight

[748]

A question for those who have had the privilege of undergoing formal training with both, or just used both:
In your opinion which M203 sight is the best?

 

[jmorris]

Only Grenade launcher I played with was an FN 40 and they offer them in both but I never got to use either in live fire.

Leaf sights are generally just elevation changes as you fold them down and up, quadrant ones can be both.

launchers are not something I know much about though

 

[entropy]

They both sucked, but the quadrant was a little more accurate.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I carried a 203 a LOT and shot it a HELL of a lot.

I like the leaf for establishing and re-confirming seat-of-pants firing and always found the quadrant most useful for the *amateurs* who either weren't permanently assigned the system or those who were but seldom fired it.

Just like the '79, after a few dozen rounds, if you haven't been leaning on the sight like a crutch.... You simply KNOW where the rounds are gonna land. Lots and LOTS of TP and then knowing how to adjust accordingly for HE, etc... beats relying on the sights if you don't have to.

Big thing with the quadrant sight is it allows for greater useful elevation without the barrel being in the line of sight than the leaf if that ever comes up. Oddly, as there's usually windage involved in lobbing those huge, slow rounds, the barrel is infrequently in the way.

In the end, regardless of how useful the quad-sight was, it was snaggy and annoying in combat and even in training. You did NOT want to jump an *exposed* 203 with that annoying thing dangling.

Todd.

 

[entropy]

You must be "The Roach"....He didn't even use the sight at all on the M79 either.......but I will admit, I was a rank amateur, not a grenadier. I mostly fired them after working on them for the one unit in my BN that had them. The CO of that Company insisted I go with when his guys went to the range after an incident with his Armorer putting a bunch of M60 pistons in backwards.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

You must be "The Roach"....He didn't even use the sight at all on the M79 either.......but I will admit, I was a rank amateur, not a grenadier. I mostly fired them after working on them for the one unit in my BN that had them. The CO of that Company insisted I go with when his guys went to the range after an incident with his Armorer putting a bunch of M60 pistons in backwards.

Too funny, is that the stoner in Apocalypse Now?

I don't think I'd ever be able to off an individual by sound, in the dark, while raining with all that background noise..... AND STONED like him.

Still, as with a 60mm mortar and the Mk-19, you really do eventually just *get* them where you want them. We were fortunate in having considerable budgets for ammo and also hoarded it when we could get it. Most units I ran into considered 203 to be primarily for illumination and signal. That's cool, we'll take your excess ammo for our *3rd bunker*.

Todd.

 

[entropy]

Too funny, is that the stoner in Apocalypse Now?

Yeah, that's the the Roach.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Too funny, is that the stoner in Apocalypse Now?

I don't think I'd ever be able to off an individual by sound, in the dark, while raining with all that background noise..... AND STONED like him.

Still, as with a 60mm mortar and the Mk-19, you really do eventually just *get* them where you want them. We were fortunate in having considerable budgets for ammo and also hoarded it when we could get it. Most units I ran into considered 203 to be primarily for illumination and signal. That's cool, we'll take your excess ammo for our *3rd bunker*.

Todd.

The Roach -


He's close, man, real close...

 

[Theohazard]

The leaf was more compact and I found it more fun, but the quadrant made it easier to be accurate. Though I’ll admit that as a machine gunner I didn’t get a lot of chances to shoot an M203, probably only fired a few dozen HE rounds and a dozen or so chalk rounds in my 4 years in the Marines.

 

[entropy]

I could put the chalk rounds in the big bay (6'x8') windows of the shoot house at the MOUT with the ladder (most of the time), but I could get them in the small 2'x3' windows with the quadrant all the time. this was at 50 to 150 meters. After a while I could hit the bay windows without the sight. The only time I got to fire HE was at an old 113. I hit it.

 

[herrwalther]

I spent about a third of my enlistment as a grenadier. The leaf sight was far more reliable and easier for me to use. It was quite instinctual. If the target was less than 150 meters away, I rarely even used the sight at all. Quadrant sights came to us later and I used it once, not nearly as durable or easy to use for me. I kept signing for the leaf sights, others went with quadrant sights, until I got moved to a different weapon

 

[Thunderchicken]

I’ve always wanted to actually see someone shoot one of those and since you guys actually used them, can you tell me how close you needed to get to have a useful effect on a target? I mean, I know you don’t have to hit someone on the top of the head, but is ten or twenty feet away on flat ground still a spoil-your-day event?

 

[FL-NC]

Leaf sight, all the time. Full stop.

 

[herrwalther]

I mean, I know you don’t have to hit someone on the top of the head, but is ten or twenty feet away on flat ground still a spoil-your-day event?

20 feet, yes it will ruin your day. For a couple reasons. First, the causality distance on a 40mm HE is about 15 meters. So shooting it at close in targets will ruin your day to a point. Two, 40mm grenades have an activation distance. It is a distance the grenade has to travel before it arms and becomes an explosive. I want to say the distance is something like 5-10 meters. Essentially that means if you ND a round into your foot (something that has happened) you will break some bones in your foot but you won't be a crater.

 

[entropy]

I want to say the distance is something like 5-10 meters.

33 meters is what we were told in Armorer school, Wikipedia says 14 to 27 meters.

 

[herrwalther]

33 meters is what we were told in Armorer school, Wikipedia says 14 to 27 meters.

I knew it was some distance. My first weapon assignment was a 203 gunner. After that I was a SDM/AG on a 240B gun team. My last year or so I was a 249SAW gunner. All this while maintaining a 1E designator. Numbers run together when you get bounced around.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I’ve always wanted to actually see someone shoot one of those and since you guys actually used them, can you tell me how close you needed to get to have a useful effect on a target? I mean, I know you don’t have to hit someone on the top of the head, but is ten or twenty feet away on flat ground still a spoil-your-day event?

Sometimes, the useful effect is merely deterring or intimidating but as far a wounding/lethatlity, with it or the the Mk 19, I always figured not much more than 8 meters and at that, almost certainly limited to wounds. In the best of conditions it could certainly be better but much beyond 10 meters and gaining a significant effect was luck.
Lethality can't be counted on much beyond 5 meters.

As far as *top of the head*? Got a funny story for that. We were training some foreign troops and the day's event was an exercise capitalizing upon controlled advances. We made it very clear what the lines of advance were, what the objectives were and what the various commands & signals were but knowing these troops - it was all augmented by my added control of my M-203 and TP (training-practice) rounds. If they were getting overly cinematic and adventurous in their advances, they were to calm down with the blue powder of the TP rounds bursting before them.

One particularly energetic *Rambo* was queering the whole exercise and thought it was a race and others were continually taking their cues from him. After 3-4 rounds popping ahead of him, he turns and gives me his nation's version of *the finger*. I look over to his commander and he says "Lett'im 'ave it!"

So. I load one and hold two and launch three rounds in VERY rapid succession and the third one explodes directly upon the top of his helmet.

As his head disappears in the cloud of blue, his commander slaps me on the back and says something to the effect of ".... teaching the cheeky bugger!" The commander having been trained in Brittain.

Any of his compatriots who saw it had to nearly be kicked to continue advancing on the objective but NO ONE advanced ahead of command after that.

TOO damn funny, that was.

Todd.

 

[FL-NC]

As I recall, the quadrant sight won't even fit on a M4/M16 with a flat top upper.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

As I recall, the quadrant sight won't even fit on a M4/M16 with a flat top upper.

They exist for either form of upper receiver now.
Early on, a permanent carry handle was mandatory and the early sights wouldn't fit on the detachable handles for lack of clearance as with a couple other attachables.

Todd.

 

[herrwalther]

As I recall, the quadrant sight won't even fit on a M4/M16 with a flat top upper.

They do. Starting with the M16A3 or A4 and later the M4, quadrant sights were adjusted to fit the rail instead of the iron sight/never used for carry handle. We never had the A3 in any of my units but I did see them on the A4.

 

[FL-NC]

They exist for either form of upper receiver now.

They do. Starting with the M16A3 or A4 and later the M4, quadrant sights were adjusted to fit the rail instead of the iron sight/never used for carry handle

I guess we never got them, all of our guys used the flip sight on the M203 until we got rid of the M203. Did that quadrant sight work with optics like ACOG, M68, etc? Did it mount to the rail on the upper?

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I guess we never got them, all of our guys used the flip sight on the M203 until we got rid of the M203. Did that quadrant sight work with optics like ACOG, M68, etc? Did it mount to the rail on the upper?

Nope - pretty much uses up the rail by itself. Some items may be able to squeeze in fore or aft but there aren't many slots left once the quad is mounted.

Todd.

 

[herrwalther]

Pretty similar to this setup. Enough room for a M68 and BUIS if you were smart about rail space. SOP for our unit was to put the PEQ 13/15 on top, just behind the front sight. For soldiers who opted to use the Quadrant sight, the PEQ would get moved, typically to the left rail. Moving from the M16A2 to anything past the A4, there was plenty of rail space for everything needed. And some things you didn't need. Used to have some firefight videos that were recorded from rail view of a rifle, just wasn't my rifle because I liked to save money by not buying cool guy stuff.

 

[FL-NC]

Pretty similar to this setup. Enough room for a M68 and BUIS if you were smart about rail space. SOP for our unit was to put the PEQ 13/15 on top, just behind the front sight. For soldiers who opted to use the Quadrant sight, the PEQ would get moved, typically to the left rail. Moving from the M16A2 to anything past the A4, there was plenty of rail space for everything needed. And some things you didn't need. Used to have some firefight videos that were recorded from rail view of a rifle, just wasn't my rifle because I liked to save money by not buying cool guy stuff.

That's not a quadrant sight in the photo- that's a KAC SOPMOD 1 flip sight.

 

[herrwalther]

Best picture I found of a sight of similar size attached to a rail.