JohnBT
Member
"the garbage heap"
And sock drawers all across the land.
And sock drawers all across the land.
Quality then and now
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oneounceload
member
Because the amount of it is no longer needed thanks to modern computers
JohnBiltz
Member
At what point in the production process exactly is soul added?
JohnBiltz
Member
I've said this before but we are living in a Golden Age of Firearms. We are have choices from a variety of firearms never seen before. Relatively inexpensive weapons of great quality. Look at automatic pistols, Up until the 80s no one used them, if you wanted a reliable hand gun anyone with sense carried a revolver because they did not jam and automatics jammed with enough regularity that you could spread it with peanut butter and make a sandwich. Americans just did not understand the Europeans fascination with autos. Then along came Sig and Beretta with Glock closing from the rear. Reliable guns, reliable automatics, finally.
Please be specific as to what "quality" means to you. Tighter tolerances, tougher metals, longer lasting finishes ... what?
And, how old is "old" to you? Are you comparing black powder guns to those designed for smokeless propellants? Synthetics to wood? Mild steel to modern metals?
It's easy to take a position on non specific terms. What's not so easy is to explain fully what you mean and then defend in depth your decisions.
Funny. That "soul" stuff is a worn cliche.Glocks don't have a soul, but...
When I take a new Glock remove the finger grooves and replace the MIM striker & extractor with steel and cast parts, recreating Gen 2 feel & quality, I give it character.
Mainsail
Member
I think we often miss the number one rule for any manufacturing operation- make a profit.
The best way to make a profit is to manufacture items in such a way that people will buy them. Once upon a time people made furniture with fancy scrollwork and dovetailed drawers. We don't see that much anymore at any mainstream furniture store.
It has nothing to do with quality- it has to do with the CUSTOMERS voting with their pocketbooks. We live in a culture that wants it cheap and wants it now. Put two dressers in a store, a plain easy to manufacture one for $100 and a fancy hand made one for $500 next to each other. The fancy one will still be in the store at the end of the day, and the next day, and the next...
It's the same with firearms. There are people who will pay for a hand-fitted pistol with deep bluing, but there are not enough of those folks to make the manufacture of such a gun profitable. The big contracts, military or police, certainly will not.
Quality is the same. Customer demand is different.
The best way to make a profit is to manufacture items in such a way that people will buy them. Once upon a time people made furniture with fancy scrollwork and dovetailed drawers. We don't see that much anymore at any mainstream furniture store.
It has nothing to do with quality- it has to do with the CUSTOMERS voting with their pocketbooks. We live in a culture that wants it cheap and wants it now. Put two dressers in a store, a plain easy to manufacture one for $100 and a fancy hand made one for $500 next to each other. The fancy one will still be in the store at the end of the day, and the next day, and the next...
It's the same with firearms. There are people who will pay for a hand-fitted pistol with deep bluing, but there are not enough of those folks to make the manufacture of such a gun profitable. The big contracts, military or police, certainly will not.
Quality is the same. Customer demand is different.
Aragon
member
A lot of the "hand fitting" was simply because they did not have the machining technology to do things any other way.
1911 guy
Member
^^This^^
I'm a machinist by trade. In fact, I just got home at 3:00 a.m. after a 12 hour shift. Hand fitting is required when the machining is not capable of holding a tolerance or generating a specific feature. I'll use an outside radius for example. When I run Bridgeport, the radius can be roughed in, but because of combining X and Y axis travel on a manual, it will be inexact. So it is milled close and hand fit with a radius gauge or mating part. However, when I take that same part to a CNC mill, the machine is capable of synchronizing X and Y movement to shape the radius exactly. All i have to do is tell the maching where I want the endmill to cut. I simply cannot do that with hand feeding a Bridgeport. Even careful plotting of tool path will result in small flats, rather than a dead smooth finish. Plus, that takes forever. It's a lot faster to rough it in then hand finish. A rotary table can be used, but you're often stuck with standard radii and still have to blend and fit.
I'm a machinist by trade. In fact, I just got home at 3:00 a.m. after a 12 hour shift. Hand fitting is required when the machining is not capable of holding a tolerance or generating a specific feature. I'll use an outside radius for example. When I run Bridgeport, the radius can be roughed in, but because of combining X and Y axis travel on a manual, it will be inexact. So it is milled close and hand fit with a radius gauge or mating part. However, when I take that same part to a CNC mill, the machine is capable of synchronizing X and Y movement to shape the radius exactly. All i have to do is tell the maching where I want the endmill to cut. I simply cannot do that with hand feeding a Bridgeport. Even careful plotting of tool path will result in small flats, rather than a dead smooth finish. Plus, that takes forever. It's a lot faster to rough it in then hand finish. A rotary table can be used, but you're often stuck with standard radii and still have to blend and fit.
wmueller139
Member
Ok I gotta weigh in on this one. I gotta go with the old gun theory on two levels, first to me the old guns fit the shooter better, ok most not all. Consider the feel of an 1894 Winchester, Peacemaker or the popular 1911.
Second and maybe I am the only one with this luck, but three recent purchases, mid line or better quality guns got immediately sent back to the manufacturer for repair well beyond break in issues. You know spending the kind of money you do on a gun, and considering the "Technology" that is supposedly used I expect to have a firearm as opposed to a packing slip with a promise of return.
Ok, off my soapbox now, just had to vent.
Second and maybe I am the only one with this luck, but three recent purchases, mid line or better quality guns got immediately sent back to the manufacturer for repair well beyond break in issues. You know spending the kind of money you do on a gun, and considering the "Technology" that is supposedly used I expect to have a firearm as opposed to a packing slip with a promise of return.
Ok, off my soapbox now, just had to vent.
Aragon
member
The 1894 Winchester isn't nearly as ergonomic as say a AR-15. Maybe that's partially because people were smaller on average when the Winchester was designed and it's not adjustable for dimensions like length of pull? Further, M1911s also weren't designed to hold 17 rounds.
Either way, neither is a measure of product quality. Both are measures of consumer preferences though.
Thankfully I haven't shared your experiences...
Aragon
member
Ever take a close look at a Mauser Broomhandle? Remarkable amount of machining on each unit. One can clearly see the tool paths -- even on units that were not built during the war.
I've thought more than once how much cleaner they would be had CNC technology been used to machine them -- of course it really didn't exist back then.
I've thought more than once how much cleaner they would be had CNC technology been used to machine them -- of course it really didn't exist back then.
R.W.Dale
Member
I would love to see some guns put back into production that had gotten to expensive to make on non automated metal working processes.
A CNC broomhandle or an investment cast SS savage 99 for example
oneounceload
member
CNC Luger might be cool as well
Hypnogator
Member
Agreed. Those who worship the 1911 as the ultimate pistol don't realize how much better they are made now due to precision machining. Usetawas, you had to tinker with a substantial percentage of them just to get them to run semi-reliably with hardball!
Aragon
member
The US Military certainly did -- and had been for decades.
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