Question about .357 Ruger Blackhawk

[JSH1]

I really want a Blackhawk in .327 Federal but I'm not willing to pay double the price of a new .357 for a used .327 model. I could buy a Single Ten, .357 Blackhawk, and send my H&R rifle to have a factory .357 barrel fitted for what the .327 Federal Blackhawks are going for on GunBroker.com!

So my questions:

1. I have never shot a Blackhawk. My local gun shop with a range and rental guns has a Blackhawk in .44 Special or 45 ACP. Would the .44 special give me a good feel for shooting the .357? I figure the recoil should be similar to shooting a hot .38 special load.

2. Is it worthwhile to get the convertible with the extra 9mm cylinder? I don't own any 9mm guns and have no plans to purchase any.

 

[KeithET]

Very difficult to compare a 44 special to a 357mag. I have both and I would have a hard time comparing the two in words. I'll give it a try though.

The 44 special with factory ammo is pretty mild to shoot. Compared to a factory 357mag its less recoil. Compared to a heavy 38 its more.
Factory 357mags will have a much louder and sharper report then factory 44special. This is not so bad if you are shooting outdoors but if you shoot indoors its a surprise the first time you shoot and something to get used to. 38's are very mild in a Blackhawk since its a big heavy gun.
The Blackhawk is big and heavy so even hot 357mags will be

The convertible 357/9mm would be kinda nice to have as 9mm ammo is pretty cheep and plentiful right now. 38's are usually more expensive then 9mm's. Just a thought.

As I am a Blackhawk fan I would have no issues buying another 357 if the urge would strike me or a good deal came along! That 357/9mm convertible looks nice.

KeithET

 

[Fiv3r]

The convertible would be nice, but I wouldn't worry about it too much.

It's a big ol' heavy single action six shooter. 9mm is nice for plinking when volume shooting is in order. I would much rather shoot 9mm than .40 at the range simply because I'm going to be going through 14-17 rounds every couple of minutes.

With a six shooter, you take your time. It takes time to shoot it. It takes time to unload it. It takes time to load it back up. I usually won't shoot more than 50-75 in a sitting simply because I don't have the time to shoot more than that.

As for how it shoots, short of a loud report, even hottish .357 is mild out of a BH. I have a BH with a 6.5" barrel and it's easy peasy. Even out of my shorter New Vaquero, .357 isn't bad at all. Then again, I don't find the fairly sharp buck of my SP101 to be much of an issue regarding comfort other than after a box of hot 158gr .357, I'm pretty much done with her

To be honest, my end of the world gun might very well be a long barreled .357 single action. Bombproof, eats several types of ammo, packs a punch, and usually very accurate.

 

[CraigC]

The Single Six is the better place for the .327 anyway.

 

[Old Fuff]

Ah....

Maybe you should ask Ruger about that.

 

[JSH1]

Thanks for the input guys.

A little background. I’ve shot rifles and shotguns since I was a child but never owned a handgun until about a year ago when a H&R 732 round butt was passed down to me. I’ve had a lot of fun at the range with the H&R but it will never be a target gun. I am looking for a good gun to learn the fundamentals of revolver shooting. I also want to start handloading and need a good test platform. I like the versatility offered by the .38 special / .357 magnum but I will most likely be shooting mainly .38 special target loads. Does a Blackhawk in .357 sound like a good fit for those goals?

So .44 special will be somewhere between .38 special + P and .357 magnum. I think that will work for what I want to do. Shooting the .44 special should give me an idea if I like the weight, grip, trigger, sights, etc on the Blackhawk.

I think I will pass on the 9mm cylinder. I was thinking it never hurts to have more options but .38 Special has so many options to choose from I can’t see spending the extra money for a cylinder that will most likely sit in a drawer.

EDIT:

The Single Six is the better place for the .327 anyway.

I have also been looking at getting a Single Six in .32 H&R Magnum. I think the .327 is too hot for the Single Six but I know there are some gunsmiths doing conversions from .32 mag to .327 mag

 

[CraigC]

The .327 is not a problem whatsoever for the Single Six. It does not even require an oversized five-shot cylinder. Only a new six shot cylinder that is simply longer.

 

[KeithET]

I am looking for a good gun to learn the fundamentals of revolver shooting. I also want to start handloading and need a good test platform. I like the versatility offered by the .38 special / .357 magnum but I will most likely be shooting mainly .38 special target loads. Does a Blackhawk in .357 sound like a good fit for those goals?

The Blackhawk would be a great gun for this. Since its a single action you will have more time to think about each shot. Each shot will by the nature of the gun have to be very deliberate. For learning the fundamentals 38 specials will serve you very well and be almost like shooting 22s. Big gun light loads means little recoil. Its an incredibly strong gun and will digest any commercially available ammo with out even blinking. When you start handloading you will find it very forgiving and take any standard published loads you can throw at it.
I started with a 357 Blackhawk still have it and will never sell it as its one of my favorite guns.

You will not be disappointed.

KeithET

 

[JSH1]

The .327 is not a problem whatsoever for the Single Six. It does not even require an oversized five-shot cylinder. Only a new six shot cylinder that is simply longer.

Ruger seems to disagree but there are gunsmiths willing to convert a single six to .327 magnum. I see Bowen Classic Arms will do the conversion for $750. If I was going to spend $1250 on a .327 I would much rather have a Bowen Single Six then a stock .327 Blackhawk.

 

[CraigC]

Ruger seems to disagree...

How is that, just because they don't make one? Manufacturers don't make a lot of things, doesn't mean they don't work or aren't a good idea. Ruger doesn't do five-shot .475's, .500's or octagon barrels but what does that mean?

 

[JSH1]

You are right Craig, just because Ruger hasn't build a Single Six in .327 doesn't mean that the frame is not capable of taking the stress. However, I think the fact that when Ruger decided to build a single action chambered in .327 they used the Blackhawk frame instead of the Single Six points to the factor of safety being less then what Ruger requires. Of course I could be completely wrong and the choice of the Blackhawk frame was simply a marking decision not a engineering one. I doubt we will every know as I don't expect to ever see Ruger build a Single Six in .327.

 

[scythefwd]

Its not quite as simple as just swapping out the cylinder for that conversion... The dont modify the frame, but they do modify the forcing cone so the cylinder will fit. I have NO DOUBT that the single six can handle standard factory 327 loads.. handloads pushing maximum performance.. I'd not feed it a steady diet of them.

 

[CraigC]

I think the fact that when Ruger decided to build a single action chambered in .327 they used the Blackhawk frame instead of the Single Six points to the factor of safety being less then what Ruger requires.

That is an assumption and one I'd not make. I guarantee you that there are a lot of factors involved in such decisions. Ease of manufacture and marketability being two important ones. IMHO, they screwed the pooch on this cartridge because they did not offer it in a good sporting platform. If not the Single Six, at least the medium frame flat-top. If the most respected names in the business convert them, then there is no safety concern.

Its not quite as simple as just swapping out the cylinder for that conversion.

No, I do believe I said it needs only a longer cylinder. It would be a given that the barrel shank would have to be shortened for this. However, none of the other work involved when converting a large frame gun to a five-shot .475 or .500 (enlarging frame window for larger diameter cylinder, blocking the action, etc.) is required.

I would not hesitate to feed it a steady diet of full pressure .327 loads. No published handload is going to exceed the SAAMI maximum of 45,000psi. That's plenty of pressure to work with.

 

[JSH1]

That is an assumption and one I'd not make. I guarantee you that there are a lot of factors involved in such decisions. Ease of manufacture and marketability being two important ones. IMHO, they screwed the pooch on this cartridge because they did not offer it in a good sporting platform. If not the Single Six, at least the medium frame flat-top. If the most respected names in the business convert them, then there is no safety concern.

I don't think there is an safety issue with Bowen's .327 conversion. When I say "factor of safety" I am talking about the engineering term. The practice of purposely building something stronger than needed just in case.

I've been reading the Gun Digest Book of Ruger Revolvers and the book mentions a couple cases of Ruger's conservative nature that apply to this discussion. An example from the book:

I know of more than a few custom gun builders who routinely chamber the Blackhawk in the .480 Ruger, as well as other calibers that are more abusive, so why in the world won't Ruger do it? I have been told quite consistently, I might add, and on a number of separate occasions", that Ruger engineers feel the Blackhawk platform is simply not up to the rigors of the .480 Ruger cartridge as it stands, plan and simple. Keep in mid that Ruger has historically and consistently raised the bar to a very high standard, regarding what it feels is a comfortable margin of safety.​

It goes on to say that even if one builds a custom cylinder to safely manage the pressure, the .480 Ruger is above Ruger's design load for the frame. I think the same applies to the .327 in the Single Six. In my opinion, while the Single Six may very well handle .327 loads just find, we will never see such a gun get Ruger's official seal of approval. Ruger requires their guns to be able to go above and beyond published loads and max pressures. I also agree with you that the medium frame flat-top would have been a better fit for the .327 then the Blackhawk frame.

On the original topic: I called the gun shop just to make sure that the gun was ready and wasn't being serviced or something before I made the trip and found out the list of rental guns on their website is hopelessly out of date. They didn't have a Blackhawk in 44 special or 45 ACP nor the Bersa Thunder 380 I was interested in trying out. Back to square one.

 

[CraigC]

I think the same applies to the .327 in the Single Six.

It doesn't apply and I'll tell you why. The custom five-shot .475's, .480's and .500's are all very tightly constructed, hand built masterpieces and as much cartridge as can be squeezed into the platform. They're not simply factory Rugers with five-shot cylinders. The frame window is opened up for a larger diameter cylinder. The action is blocked. An oversized bolt is fitted and a bearing block installed that completely supports the bolt. Cylinders are constructed and fitted to that particular frame and linebored. They are built to precise tolerances to keep them from battering themselves to pieces. That's why it costs $2000-$2800 just for the conversion. Ruger can't do all that. They need a platform to not only withstand the rigors of normal shooting but one that offers a 100% safety margin AND is compatible with their manufacturing processes.

Like I said before, the Single Six needs only a longer cylinder. That's it. It's not larger in diameter, it's not a five-shot, the action is not blocked and the entire sixgun does not have to be rebuilt. The Single Six is not at its limit with the .327 as the large frames are with the .500. The Single Six is at its limit as a five-shot .41Spl.

 

[Old Fuff]

That's why it costs $2000-$2800 just for the conversion.

Which is a pretty good reason Ruger won't do it.

Ruger can't do all that.

They probably could, but they won't. Looking at the market for a regular priced .327 Magnum based on the Single Six platform clearly would show that projected sales wouldn't cover the cost of development and production.

Saying that all that is needed is longer cylinder is a vast and misleading understatement.

 

[CraigC]

Which is a pretty good reason Ruger won't do it.

Obviously, which was my point. To make the large frame guns in .475 and .500 last, they have to be hand-fitted. Which flies in the face of Ruger's business/manufacturing practices. What works for a hand-fitted custom often does not work for a large scale manufacturer. A factory gun in one of those chamberings will have to be an all new platform to able to offer enough strength and durability and still be compatible with Ruger's manufacturing methods. Which is basically what a BFR is.

Saying that all that is needed is longer cylinder is a vast and misleading understatement.

How do you figure that? You've either misunderstood what I posted or took that statement out of context.

 

[Old Fuff]

Like I said before, the Single Six needs only a longer cylinder. That's it. It's not larger in diameter, it's not a five-shot, the action is not blocked and the entire sixgun does not have to be rebuilt. The Single Six is not at its limit with the .327 as the large frames are with the .500. The Single Six is at its limit as a five-shot .41Spl.

I see Bowen Classic Arms will do the conversion for $750. If I was going to spend $1250 on a .327 I would much rather have a Bowen Single Six then a stock .327 Blackhawk

.

It would appear that a lot more is required then simply buying a new cylinder. You'd need to start with a .32 center fire Single Six, unscrew the barrel, fit the new cylinder, and then shorten the shank of the original barrel and reassemble it. There is a lot of custom work involved here that will end up costing more then the platform itself. This is a lot more then "... the Single Six needs only a longer cylinder."

A K-frame S&W I'll buy. Without quistion, the new (or even old) flat-top .357 Blackhawk is great. But I think that Ruger's engineers are on solid ground when they say "no" to a six-shot Single Six. Obviously unlike some they aren't interested in seeing how close they can get to the outer limit.

 

[CraigC]

It would appear that a lot more is required then simply buying a new cylinder.

You have proven in the past that your knowledge of custom revolvers is limited at best. I never said, "all you have to do is buy a new cylinder". I never entailed what was involved. This is a gunsmith operation and I don't know how you could've taken my post any other way. Yes, very, very obviously (not obvious enough) this requires the custom gunsmith to build the new cylinder, fit it to the frame and then shorten the barrel shank. In relation to building a custom five-shot .475 or .500, this is a very simple operation and priced accordingly. No, it ain't cheap at $500-$750 (I was quoted $700 for Stroh to do a linebored cylinder) but it's a fraction of a high dollar big bore conversion.

But I think that Ruger's engineers are on solid ground when they say "no" to a six-shot Single Six.

Based on what, a bunch of assumptions??? Like I've said several times now, if this were the ragged edge, the .327 Single Sixes would be sporting oversized five-shot cylinders as they are when converted to .38Spl or .41Spl. If they were on the ragged edge, they would have fortified actions with refit bolts, bearing blocks, etc.. They are not. So stop putting words in the mouths of Ruger engineers and making wild assumptions, for they are not founded in reality.

S&W makes a six shot J-frame .327 with a cylinder diameter of 1.45". The Single Six is at 1.462". That should settle it.

Fluffer, your knowledge base is deep but at times, it is not nearly broad enough. On this topic, it is severely lacking.

 

[Old Fuff]

Fluffer, your knowledge base is deep but at times, it is not nearly broad enough. On this topic, it is severely lacking.

Ah... Not at all, and part of it is based on decades working at different jobs within the firearms industry.

What I took exception to was your comment that: ... the Single Six needs only a longer cylinder. That's it. More examination into the question discloses that something like $750 is involved, plus the cost of the basic gun, and that the platform maker (Ruger) won't touch the proposal with a ten-foot pole.

Given these facts I suspect that JHS1 and most others who are following this thread who might have been thinking about a .327 Magnum build on a Single Six platform have dropped the idea in fast order. Very few revolver buyers (and in particular those interested in the .327 Magnum) are interested in investing something in the $1200 ballpark. The only one who might make such a gun at a more affordable price is Ruger, and they clearly won't. A much more likely candidate - that has at least a chance of happening - would be based on the new flat-top .357 frame Blackhawk or current mid-frame Vaquero. If I was looking at spending big-bucks I’d see what Freedom Arms might have to offer.

Custom handguns, particularly revolvers, do have they’re place, and you may be shocked to learn that I have owned some. However the ones I had were more balanced in terms of platform vs. cartridge, without seeing how close I could come to the outside limits of the package. Also I tend to recommend choices that have a chance of becoming a reality, and don’t require having to mortgage the farm.

This observation comes from understanding how the decision makers at most manufacturers think, and the first thing they are going to look at is, “How large is the potential market?” The second is, “Does it exceed any of our, or other industry standards?” As a practical matter a negative answer to either will end things right now.

 

[Panzerschwein]

While the .44 special is a much more effective round, the .357 magnum is louder and more obnoxious.

I would avoid anything .357 magnum IMHO. Too much blast and noise for too little ballistic performance. There are many 9mm +P+ rounds that will equal or better factory .357 ammo from the same length barrel. A .44 special, which is a much less "dramatic" load, retains even greater effectiveness than any .357 magnum load.

I wouldn't hesitate to get a .357 blackhawk with the 9mm cyliner, and only use that. Like I said, with today's technology 9mm +P and +P+ give up nothing to the irritatingly uncomfortable shooting characteristics of .357 mag. Same performance as the magnum load but much easier on the ears/hands.

JMHO. YMMV.

 

[DPris]

.45-70 Single-Six.
Get those cards & letters going to Lipsey's tomorrow!

Denis

 

[DPris]

And, the comparison between .357 & .44 Special in the Blackhawk depends entirely on what you shoot through them.

My .44 Special Flattop uses a 250-grain Keith bullet and 13.3 grains of 2400 to put out 1050 FPS.
That's my working load for it, built in the Basement Bullet Mine.

Last Fall I worked with a .357 Blackhawk, same 4 5/8-inch barrel length.

Buff Bore's 180-grain lead at 1446 FPS was the second most accurate load tested, only beaten by the Buff Bore 158 JHP at 1457 FPS.

The two calibers, with those loads, were roughly equal in the Cheesegrater Factor, with the checkered factory grips.
Not pleasant, but more tolerable than the same grips on the .44 Mag Flattop, which I won't shoot again without gloves or new grips.

Lesser .44 Special loads (especially the standard factory stuff) are not bad, same with lesser .357 Loads.

Muzzle rise for me is about equal, in those hotter rounds. Maybe a smidge more muzzle rise in the .357.

Shoot a slow .44 Special factory RNL & compare it to a hotter .357, the magnum will get your attention much more noticeably.
Shoot a hot .44 Special & compare to a 110-grain .357 Magnum, the .44 will produce the heavier recoil.

As far as convertibles go, I have a .45 Blackhawk convertible, but don't plan to shoot much ACP through it. Nice to have the capability, if .45 Colt ammunition dries up somehow.
It'd be the same with the .357/9mm.
Even if you don't plan to shoot 9mm, wouldn't hurt to have the ability, if the world ends tomorrow & 9mm's all you can find.
Denis

 

[JSH1]

Cooldill: While the .44 special is a much more effective round, the .357 magnum is louder and more obnoxious.

I'm curious what you mean by "more effective"?

I'm looking to pair whichever Blackhawk I purchase with a H&R single shot rifle so I have also looked into the .44 special / .44 magnum chambering. I couldn't think of anything I would be doing that would require the extra oomph from the 44. Commercial .44 special ammo seems to be at least 50% more expensive then .38 special and I would expect that it would also cost more to handload. I don't expect to shoot much .357. Yes, I will buy a box just to try it out but I expect to should mostly .38 special.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I'm curious what you mean by "more effective"?

I'm looking to pair whichever Blackhawk I purchase with a H&R single shot rifle so I have also looked into the .44 special / .44 magnum chambering. I couldn't think of anything I would be doing that would require the extra oomph from the 44. Commercial .44 special ammo seems to be at least 50% more expensive then .38 special and I would expect that it would also cost more to handload. I don't expect to shoot much .357. Yes, I will buy a box just to try it out but I expect to should mostly .38 special.

.44 special, as you can imagine, is a much larger bullet than the .357 magnum. They can be much heavier, to the tune of 300 grains or more while .357 magnum struggles with anything over 180 grains.

While it's true that the .357 bullets travel faster, the much more physically massive .44 special bullets are far more effective in every way especially at handgun energies.

Do some reading on Elmer Keith and you will find that he abandoned the .357 magnum handily and became much more interested in .44/.45 offerings later on, due to there much higher lethality against game animals of all sizes as well as human attackers. Not only that, but .44 special and .45 Colt are much more pleasant to shoot and are far easier on the ears than .357 magnum.

Bigger bullets just tend to work better!