Well, I really don't know about USA laws regarding automatic weapons. I'm asking this simply by curiosity (since I'll never be able to fire one). My question is about automatic weapons: is it possible to fire single rounds when shooting an automatic assault rifle (like the M4A1 carbine)? Well, most have a rate of fire of at least 600 rounds/min right? That means that if you hold the trigger for one second you'll fire 10 rounds. Is it possible?
Question about automatic fire
- Thread starter Rykkaru
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Yes, it is entirely possible, and quite easy to fire single rounds in such a carbine. Its as easy as moving the selector switch on the safety from "full" to "semi". Just because an M4A1 is CAPABLE of full auto fire, that doesn't mean it HAS to be fired on full auto at all times. In the vast majority of cases, a semi-auto setting is preferred to the fullauto
Yes, I completely understand, but even some weapons have rate of fires of 800 rounds/min and I think that some even fire at 1000 rounds/min. That's 17 rounds/sec! Is that still possible with such weapons?
I just answered your question....the semi-auto setting reduces the cyclic rate to one shot per squeeze of trigger. However, if you are asking if a "one shot burst" is doable with a full auto SET on the full auto setting.....yes, with some practice and trigger time, it can be done. Why one would need to, when a simple nudge of ther selector switch puts the gun into semi mode, is what puzzles me
Destructo6
Member
When it's set on automatic, getting a single round "burst" out of an M4 is pretty much impossible. Two round bursts are typically the minimum.
As said above, if you want a single round, put it on "semi".
As said above, if you want a single round, put it on "semi".
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
There are several types of machine guns (machine pistols, submachine guns, assault rifles, Squad Automatic Weapons / light machine guns, general purpose machine guns, heavy machine guns, and so forth) and many different actual models made that fit into each of those groups.
Each manufacturer has set the cyclic rate of fire purposefully to achieve a certain firing characteristic. Many small machine pistols fire at extremely high rates of fire. (Over 1,000 rpm.) Some submachine guns fire at very low rates of fire. The US M3 "Grease Gun" fires at only around 400 rpm, which is about as fast as a very good pistol shooter can empty a 1911 handgun. Most assault rifles fire at a middling rate of 600-800 rpm. Belt-fed GPMGs are a mixed bag, with the German MG38s and 42s, known for blistering rates of fire of up to 1,700 rpm. The US M2 heavy machine gun is available in several versions from 450 rpm up to over 1,000.
With the slower operating guns (M3s, some Uzis, M2, etc.) you can indeed squeeze off one round at a time, with the gun on fully-automatic mode. By about 600+ rpms, you'll be limited to two shot bursts or more. The speedier guns (1,000+) are going to put 3, 4, 5+ downrange before you can get off the trigger, generally.
Machine pistols, most submachine guns, and assault rifles usually have a semi-auto setting allowing you to fire one shot for each trigger pull if you want. Most of the other styles of machine gun do not, but they generally aren't intended to be fired in a precision manner, either.
Each manufacturer has set the cyclic rate of fire purposefully to achieve a certain firing characteristic. Many small machine pistols fire at extremely high rates of fire. (Over 1,000 rpm.) Some submachine guns fire at very low rates of fire. The US M3 "Grease Gun" fires at only around 400 rpm, which is about as fast as a very good pistol shooter can empty a 1911 handgun. Most assault rifles fire at a middling rate of 600-800 rpm. Belt-fed GPMGs are a mixed bag, with the German MG38s and 42s, known for blistering rates of fire of up to 1,700 rpm. The US M2 heavy machine gun is available in several versions from 450 rpm up to over 1,000.
With the slower operating guns (M3s, some Uzis, M2, etc.) you can indeed squeeze off one round at a time, with the gun on fully-automatic mode. By about 600+ rpms, you'll be limited to two shot bursts or more. The speedier guns (1,000+) are going to put 3, 4, 5+ downrange before you can get off the trigger, generally.
Machine pistols, most submachine guns, and assault rifles usually have a semi-auto setting allowing you to fire one shot for each trigger pull if you want. Most of the other styles of machine gun do not, but they generally aren't intended to be fired in a precision manner, either.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Hard to just do a single when a full-auto is set on full instead of semi.
I disremember, but I think a Thompson is 450 rounds/minute. Just popping two rounds is fairly easy, but it's very difficult to just pop one. Definitely difficult to do it as aimed fire. Fully-controlled three-shot bursts are a piece of cake.
I wouldn't even bother to try for singles with full-autos which run 600 rounds/minute and up.
Digressing: Holding on the center of a three-foot target at 100 yards with a Thompson makes for a low hit, a center hit and a high hit. With proper aim on a fella, you ruin pleasure, digestion and singing voice in one swell foop.
I disremember, but I think a Thompson is 450 rounds/minute. Just popping two rounds is fairly easy, but it's very difficult to just pop one. Definitely difficult to do it as aimed fire. Fully-controlled three-shot bursts are a piece of cake.
I wouldn't even bother to try for singles with full-autos which run 600 rounds/minute and up.
Digressing: Holding on the center of a three-foot target at 100 yards with a Thompson makes for a low hit, a center hit and a high hit. With proper aim on a fella, you ruin pleasure, digestion and singing voice in one swell foop.
dogrunner
Member
Once you "educate" your finger single shots are easy with most full autos.
I've since sold the thing, but I had a minty MP40 that cycled at about 500 plus and it was easy to control single and double rounds....Far as the M3 goes, I found the extremely slow firing rate actually a distraction. I have an M16A2 that's full and semi only and it also is easily controlled with singles or doubles...I also own an M2 carbine that runs about 800 rpm and even it is controllable with singles if you wish.
I've since sold the thing, but I had a minty MP40 that cycled at about 500 plus and it was easy to control single and double rounds....Far as the M3 goes, I found the extremely slow firing rate actually a distraction. I have an M16A2 that's full and semi only and it also is easily controlled with singles or doubles...I also own an M2 carbine that runs about 800 rpm and even it is controllable with singles if you wish.
lemaymiami
Member
If you're ever able to watch really skilled weapons types with auto capable weapons you'll note that as the skill level goes up the number of rounds fired goes down.. You can actually hear the fire from a trained team since it will be lots, lots less than their opponents. Single shots, double taps, tri-bursts are a matter of constant training to achieve that goal. More to be said here but not on a public forum.
Tommygunn
Member
Art Eatman said:
More like 800-900 RPM. In fact some of the civilian versions were said to be about 1,000 Rounds per minute. The military wanted the 1928 version to go around 800 and when it was simplified to the M1 and M1A1 version it was a little faster, but still acceptable to the army.
Carl N. Brown
Member
The low cyclic rate of the M3 Grease gun and the low setting on the WWII BAR ("slow" ~350 rpm and "fast" ~600 rpm) do allow a user with some practice to fire single shots on full auto by a quick pull and release of the trigger.
(The original WWI BAR had semi and full settings, but the "improved" WWII version had slow and fast settings (complicating the buffer system til maintenance had to pulled by the armorer rather than the rifleman).
(The original WWI BAR had semi and full settings, but the "improved" WWII version had slow and fast settings (complicating the buffer system til maintenance had to pulled by the armorer rather than the rifleman).
MachIVshooter
Member
Most M2 and 1919 variants have a relatively low ROF, though. AA versions, OTOH, burp 'em out pretty fast.
The one I got to play with was a very early gun, and the owner claimed it had a ROF around 1,200 RPM. I believe it; That thing quite literally emptied a 20 round magazine in the blink of an eye. It was also somewhat difficult to control, especially considering it's an 11 pound gun shooting a pistol cartridge. His MP5 seemed downright staccato after firing the Thompson. With it's cyclic rate, I doubt one could let off fewer than 4 or 5 rounds in full auto; It seemed like the last shell was ejected before the first hit the ground.
AK103K
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Some guns dont have a selector, and are always on "full".
A lot depends on the gun and how familiar you are with it. It really doenst take much time to figure them out. Guns with a high rate of fire, like a MAC, or one of the light bolt Thompsons, are usually more difficult, but Ive seen some with quick reflexes do it on a regular basis. I usually dont get less than 4-5 rounds out of my MAC when I try, although I did somewhat better with my one buddys Thompson. My MP5 on the other hand, will let you shoot one round "bursts" on demand, all day long. Same goes for another friends MP40 and Port Said M45 copy.
Most people who dont shoot them on a regular basis arent really interested in shooting them single shot. It can sometimes be a challenge to get them to be reasonable at all. Too many people learned to shoot them from the movies, and seem to think you have to do mag dumps or nothing. Usually after the first couple, some are more open to suggestions when they see they didnt hit anything. Then again, some arent.
It really is amazing to me how many "combat vets" Ive seen shoot, who had a rough time, with even pistol caliber guns. From what Ive seen, its something that isnt really "taught" to your basic trooper, and many Ive talked to over the years, said they had no actual training at all, and if they were lucky, maybe a couple of mags in a mad minute type thing. As easy as it is to learn to do it right (it really shouldnt take more than a couple of mags on the long side to get it down), I suppose they dont want to waste the ammo bothering to try.
jojo200517
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Yeah you can squeeze the trigger and let off fast enough ya can get off 1 shot bursts on full auto guns.
Heres my question I have always wondered, on guns that have a burst fire selector, say 3 or 5 shot burst. If you let off quick enough will it stop after 1 or 2 shots or fire the whole burst. I'd assume it stopped as soon as you let off but if ya only fire say 2 shots on a 5 round burst, would you get the last 3 on the next trigger pull or a full 5 more?
I'd really love to see one of these and strip it down and have someone explain the mechanics of how the burst fire even works to me.
Heres my question I have always wondered, on guns that have a burst fire selector, say 3 or 5 shot burst. If you let off quick enough will it stop after 1 or 2 shots or fire the whole burst. I'd assume it stopped as soon as you let off but if ya only fire say 2 shots on a 5 round burst, would you get the last 3 on the next trigger pull or a full 5 more?
I'd really love to see one of these and strip it down and have someone explain the mechanics of how the burst fire even works to me.
Carl N. Brown
Member
There's usually a cam involved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burst_mode_(firearm)
Pulling and releasing the trigger on a burst mode gun may:
(a) complete the full burst.
(b) interrupt the burst, and the next pull completes the interrupted burst.
(c) interrupt the burst, and reset for a full burst on next pull.
Depends on design. If given a burst fire gun, I would want to find out what happens with that particular design.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burst_mode_(firearm)
Pulling and releasing the trigger on a burst mode gun may:
(a) complete the full burst.
(b) interrupt the burst, and the next pull completes the interrupted burst.
(c) interrupt the burst, and reset for a full burst on next pull.
Depends on design. If given a burst fire gun, I would want to find out what happens with that particular design.
AK103K
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That pretty much sums it up, and hopefully, if the gun has a burst setting, its not the last stop, so you can at least bypass it and put it in the proper spot when needed.
Some bean counter figured its cheaper to try and make the gun think for them, instead of spending a little time teaching them to think for themselves.
Michael R.
Member
well, in Call of Duty you can do it.... i wont go there. but, back to the question, i think it is possible if you control your trigger. i dont think its possible on a minigun
LiquidTension
Member
My Max-11 ran at ~900 rounds/minute. I could do singles, doubles, or triples with no problem.
I've never been a fan of full auto fire unless one registers several guns to fire in concert. Then you can create a killing zone using fire sticks. Grunts like full auto for clearing buildings. Now the M-4 has a burst setting, which is really all of the automatic fire you need in close combat. Full auto fire spits a lot of bullets down range that miss and then you have to feed that gun with ammo that you carry on your back. Semi-auto fire is better, in my view.
You can pretty nearly simulate full auto fire by just ripping off shots from your AR. Or with your 10/22 which is cheaper. Really though, while full auto fire is kind of fun, it doesn't do as much damage as one might think, unless, as I said, it is organized an coordinated.
Where I live lots of guys shoot machineguns. I don't think it is what it is cracked up to be. Now an interestng gun will cost you $20 K. Then you have to feed the thing. Buy an old 1903 Springfield and take your time. Shoot it at 500 yds. That's a kick in the pants.
You can pretty nearly simulate full auto fire by just ripping off shots from your AR. Or with your 10/22 which is cheaper. Really though, while full auto fire is kind of fun, it doesn't do as much damage as one might think, unless, as I said, it is organized an coordinated.
Where I live lots of guys shoot machineguns. I don't think it is what it is cracked up to be. Now an interestng gun will cost you $20 K. Then you have to feed the thing. Buy an old 1903 Springfield and take your time. Shoot it at 500 yds. That's a kick in the pants.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
From checking around, the Thompson was much faster in its cyclic rate in the early models. As much as 1,200 rounds/minute. WW II models were down in the 500 to 600 range. The one I got to mess with in 1982 was a then-current new manufacture. Seemed slow, compared to a GI M2 Carbine or an M-16.
MachIVshooter
Member
MAC-11 (As in Military Armament Corporation model 11).
And their cyclic rate is 1,200 RPM; Pretty much impossible to single fire.
RE-15
Member
When we would zero or qualify with the M-60, 240- G or MK-19 1 shot was required to test. It was fairly easy to manipulate the trigger and just squeze off one at a time. M2-50 cal also had a single shot lock mechanism. The rate of fire is a hypothetical rate. 200 -250 continuos without a barrel change will begin to overheat and melt. About 6 30 round mags dumped through an M-16 on burst will get you a red glowing barrel. There was a time I was actully bored with shooting crew served autos. They are hot heavy and require days of cleaning. I moved on to slow rate of fire, long range weapons.
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