Question about gripping with hand

[westernrover]

I have a question about gripping the gun with the hand, the dominant hand. I am right-handed. I am using a 1911 for example, but I think many automatics are a similar shape.

If I align the slide with my forearm, the metacarpals of my hand are at an oblique angle to the right-side grip panel. When I wrap my fingers around the front of the grip, there is a gap under my knuckles. The metacarpophalangeal joint is not in firm contact with the grip panel. When I squeeze the grip front-to-back by pulling with my fingers and pushing with my thumb, that necessarily pushes my knuckles even farther to the outside, reducing panel contact. The thumb is pointed parallel with the bore axis. If I add the support-hand, I can get good contact with the support hand on the left-side grip-panel. With my support hand fingers, I can squeeze the proximal phalanges of the dominant hand down, but I cannot reach over the top of the knuckles.

If I rotate the gun in my grip so the slide goes from the web of my hand out toward the right at a slight angle to my forearm, then my knuckle joints contact the grip panel and my trigger finger goes through the trigger guard far enough that the first crease rests on the trigger. The thumb is pointed slightly to the left of the bore axis. When I add the support hand, the palm rests on top of the dominant hand fingers and does not contact the grip panel but for a little bit. The support-hand fingers wrap far enough around that they can push down on the top of the dominant-hand knuckles.

So the question is, which grip has the best advantage? I believe the first grip I described is correct, but why isn't the right-side grip-pane thicker then to improve contact? Why is there that gap where the metacarpals and phalanges make a "tent"?

 

[Dave T]

When I carried a 1911 all through my LEO career and for many years afterward. I squeezed the grip front to back with my right hand and side to side with my left hand. I tried to get as much physical contact on the gun with both hands to anchor my grip and stop any movement except for the trigger finger. Most instructors, myself included, advocate placing the pad of the finger on the 1911 trigger, not the joint.

It sounds to me, from you lengthy description, that you problem is one of hand size. I'm guessing you have large hands or at least long fingers. The reason the stocks on the 1911 are the thickness they are is it is a good compromise for the majority of hand sizes. It doesn't fit everyone but it fits a great meany people. You may need to get thicker grips. Alternatively, you might take a look at a double stack 1911. That larger grip frame might fit you better.

Dave

 

[tarosean]

Works the same.

 

[Deus Machina]

That's why I have trouble with some guns. I have medium hands but relatively long fingers. Many guns are built for people the other way around. It's easier to deal with fingers of a different size than palms.
Pro: no complaints about guns like CZ with a long trigger reach. Con: it's also hard to find good gloves.
Anyway, that's a good point about 1911s. Everyone and their brother sells grips for it. Small hands? You can find them thinner, almost flat, and heavily textured.
Big hands?

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I have a question about gripping the gun with the hand, the dominant hand. I am right-handed. I am using a 1911 for example, but I think many automatics are a similar shape.

If I align the slide with my forearm, the metacarpals of my hand are at an oblique angle to the right-side grip panel. When I wrap my fingers around the front of the grip, there is a gap under my knuckles. The metacarpophalangeal joint is not in firm contact with the grip panel. When I squeeze the grip front-to-back by pulling with my fingers and pushing with my thumb, that necessarily pushes my knuckles even farther to the outside, reducing panel contact. The thumb is pointed parallel with the bore axis. If I add the support-hand, I can get good contact with the support hand on the left-side grip-panel. With my support hand fingers, I can squeeze the proximal phalanges of the dominant hand down, but I cannot reach over the top of the knuckles.

If I rotate the gun in my grip so the slide goes from the web of my hand out toward the right at a slight angle to my forearm, then my knuckle joints contact the grip panel and my trigger finger goes through the trigger guard far enough that the first crease rests on the trigger. The thumb is pointed slightly to the left of the bore axis. When I add the support hand, the palm rests on top of the dominant hand fingers and does not contact the grip panel but for a little bit. The support-hand fingers wrap far enough around that they can push down on the top of the dominant-hand knuckles.

So the question is, which grip has the best advantage? I believe the first grip I described is correct, but why isn't the right-side grip-pane thicker then to improve contact? Why is there that gap where the metacarpals and phalanges make a "tent"?

That's one of the reasons I like the HK VP and P30 series pistols. The interchangeable side panels makes it easier to get the palm swell I like.

I put the largest right side and backstrap panels in, and then the smallest on the left side so my fingers can wrap firmly around the gun. It works for me. May not for other.

Honestly I think you need thick grip panels. I wear XL gloves, and what you describe happens to me with most stock handguns. It's why I don't really put too much emphasis on ergonomics when I look them over in the shop if wider grip panels, or in the case of revolvers the entire grip, can be swapped out for thicker panels.

I have been shooting a 1911 long enough though that it no longer pothers me much even with stock panels. It becomes more important in heavy recoiling guns for me, because if I don't have good contact, they beat me up.

That's an excellent video in post #3. I tend to keep my support hand a little lower and further back like he demonstrated as being less than optimal. Yes, thumbs forward, but like he said, too low and your hands stack up. I'm going to try bringing it forward and higher next time I shoot and see how I group.

 

[pblanc]

Have you tried using a spacer under your right grip panel? You might need longer grip screws, but it is a very easy modification.

 

[JTQ]

Maybe you need one of these Warren Tactical Grip Sleeves

https://warrentactical.com/product-category/grip-assist-sleeve/

 

[westernrover]

Before coming to the conclusion that I need larger grips, I'm still wanting to know which way to rotate the hand around the grip. The Bob Vogel video explained grip height and the support hand, but not so much the azimuth of the strong-hand grip.

Looking at Miculek videos, Jerry and Kay both seem to demonstrate the second technique I described:


In this video, Jerry shows his grip at 10:07 with the strong-side thumb pointed away to the left of the bore centerline. Even though he says at 10:15 "thumbs are going to point toward the target" his right thumb is clearly shown at that moment pointed to the left of the bore. He shows it again at 11:23 pointed to the left. Now I'm not really interested in the thumbs, but the thumbs indicate to me that his grip is rotated around to the right side of the gun so that his strong-hand knuckles are farther forward and his metacarpals are flat against the grip instead of at an obligue angle.

Another way of asking my question: Should the strong-hand thumb be pointed in-line with the barrel, or should the strong-hand metacarpals be pointed in line with the barrel? It's either one or the other.



In this video, Kay shows her grip at 1:54. I can see the strong-hand thumb is pointed to the left and the bore is not aligned with her forearm. Even if she bent her wrist, that bore would not line up with the forearm.

What these videos show me is the Miculeks are pointing their metacarpals in-line with the barrel rather than their strong-side thumbs. I believe they do that because it gives more grip-panel contact area, and because they shoot isosceles stance.

If the bore is instead in-line with the forearm, and the strong-side thumb is in-line with the bore, the strong-side wrist must be bent to the strong side to aim perpendicular to a square stance. The strong-side wrist will be bent more than the support-side. This grip almost forces a Weaver or Chapman arm configuration.

Thanks for all the advice about the larger grips, but a wider, fatter grip will increase the angle between the thumb and metacarpals. The result is that my question becomes even more important to answer. Should the strong-hand thumb be pointed in-line with the barrel, or should the strong-hand metacarpals be pointed in line with the barrel? It's either one or the other.

 

[JTQ]

A lefty, but Patrick E. Kelley, who has long fingers, with a 1911.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Should the strong-hand thumb be pointed in-line with the barrel, or should the strong-hand metacarpals be pointed in line with the barrel? It's either one or the other.

It seems to me that trying to align anything but the trigger finger metacarpal with the barrel would result in an unnatural grip. When I look at my hand gripping a pistol, my middle, ring, and pinky metacarpals are oriented about 35 to 40 degrees left of where the barrel points. So I guess if you are looking for an either or answer, I would say your thumb and trigger fingers should be more in line with the barrel, though even having larger hands, my thumb is pointed off to the left a few degrees. Obviously yes, grip width and beaver tail width come into play.

 

[pblanc]

Before coming to the conclusion that I need larger grips, I'm still wanting to know which way to rotate the hand around the grip. The Bob Vogel video explained grip height and the support hand, but not so much the azimuth of the strong-hand grip.

Looking at Miculek videos, Jerry and Kay both seem to demonstrate the second technique I described:


In this video, Jerry shows his grip at 10:07 with the strong-side thumb pointed away to the left of the bore centerline. Even though he says at 10:15 "thumbs are going to point toward the target" his right thumb is clearly shown at that moment pointed to the left of the bore. He shows it again at 11:23 pointed to the left. Now I'm not really interested in the thumbs, but the thumbs indicate to me that his grip is rotated around to the right side of the gun so that his strong-hand knuckles are farther forward and his metacarpals are flat against the grip instead of at an obligue angle.

Another way of asking my question: Should the strong-hand thumb be pointed in-line with the barrel, or should the strong-hand metacarpals be pointed in line with the barrel? It's either one or the other.



In this video, Kay shows her grip at 1:54. I can see the strong-hand thumb is pointed to the left and the bore is not aligned with her forearm. Even if she bent her wrist, that bore would not line up with the forearm.

What these videos show me is the Miculeks are pointing their metacarpals in-line with the barrel rather than their strong-side thumbs. I believe they do that because it gives more grip-panel contact area, and because they shoot isosceles stance.

If the bore is instead in-line with the forearm, and the strong-side thumb is in-line with the bore, the strong-side wrist must be bent to the strong side to aim perpendicular to a square stance. The strong-side wrist will be bent more than the support-side. This grip almost forces a Weaver or Chapman arm configuration.

Thanks for all the advice about the larger grips, but a wider, fatter grip will increase the angle between the thumb and metacarpals. The result is that my question becomes even more important to answer. Should the strong-hand thumb be pointed in-line with the barrel, or should the strong-hand metacarpals be pointed in line with the barrel? It's either one or the other.

No, it's not one or the other. Because of the geometry of the first metacarpophalangeal joint, you can easily point your thumb outward at around a 60-degree angle from the plane of your 2nd-5th metacarpals. I don't think that the direction the shooting thumb is pointing tells us anything about the angle between the palm of the shooting hand and the barrel.

Shooting one handed, I try to align my hand with my forearm and the barrel of the pistol with my forearm. Shooting two handed, in order to get the base of both hands well-approximated to the grip, my shooting hand is slightly dorsiflexed on my forearm, and my support hand is a bit more dorsiflexed since I am right handed and right eye dominant. But either way, with a pistol I position my strong side thumb over the base of my support thumb to avoid accidentally riding the slide stop. So my shooting thumb is pointing a bit to the left of the barrel axis. When shooting model 1911s I do not ride the thumb safety with my shooting thumb.

 

[ATLDave]

If you're asking about how the right palm should interact with the grip, the truth is that it doesn't matter a great deal.

There are three primary factors that go into control recoil of a handgun:

• How much force you can exert (e.g., how strong your wrist is at resisting upward bending);
• How much of that force you are able to exert on the gun (i.e., how much the gun slips from your grasp during recoil); and
• Where you apply that force (e.g., how close to the bore you are able to get that force applied/leverage).

For reasons I'll try to explain, the palm of your strong hand isn't a significant contributor to any of the above. .

Think about how your strong (I'll go with "right," since both the OP and I are right-handed) hand interacts with the gun in recoil. Your right arm is more or less rigidly fixed behind the gun. The highest point of support behind the gun is at the beavertail, however high up the substantive (not just skin and fat) part of the web of your hand can get. The recoil is predominantly trying to pivot the gun around that point. It is pushing back on your hand at the backstrap. The front strap is "trying" to slide up.

Fortunately, you are able to apply a good deal of force on those planes. If those surfaces are appropriately checkered or otherwise grippy, your right hand should never slip. The limiting factor on the recoil control you get with your right hand (with a full sized gun) is basically never going to be friction. And you are able to apply force directly against the recoil motion of the gun. The limiting factors are going to be your strength and leverage. Getting more contact area with your right palm will slightly increase overall friction (not the problem anyway), but won't really change how much leverage your have... you've already got much better leverage at the beavertail and the frontstrap.

The left side is a different story. Our left hand generally cannot get behind the gun - the right hand is in the way. Nor can it get directly to the frontstrap, nor the right grip panel - although it can indirectly apply force to those surfaces by squeezing on the right hand. Because the left hand doesn't have the right hand/arms's "interference fit" advantage of being behind the gun, it is much more depending on a "friction fit" to control the gun.

Ability to keep the gun from slipping around in the left hand grip is a significant factor in how effective a grip is. Generally, shooters with ineffective grips will "re-grip" the gun a lot during rapid shooting with the left hand (though rarely, if ever, with the right). That's a sure sign that they are having friction problems - the gun is slipping from their left hand's grasp. At that point, it doesn't matter how much strength their left hand and arm have - they can't get much of it applied. It's like a car that has broken its drive tires loose and is just spinning them.

So a really big, appropriate focus for shooters who care about recoil control is to get as much friction between their left hand and the gun as possible. Since the only area available for gripping is the left grip panel (and maybe a tiny section of the frame above it, and maybe the trigger guard, and a thumb rest if you've got one), that matters a lot. The right side grip panel? Just doesn't matter a huge amount.

This is all just a different way of sharing the common observation that one mostly squeezes fore-and-aft with the right hand, and mostly port-and-starboard with the left. When it comes to the right hand, there's little or nothing to squeeze against anyway (our fingers don't wrap far enough around to apply a meaningful amount of port-and-starboard squeeze with the right hand).

Accordingly, it would not make any sense to sacrifice any fore-and-aft benefits with the right hand to get more palm contact on that side. Nor would it make sense to do anything that would interfere with the easiest straight-to-the-rear trigger pull.

You can play around with grip panels, and you should. But how they interact with your right palm is probably the least significant thing to pay attention to in your evaluation of them.

 

[rskent]

So the question is, which grip has the best advantage?

Westernrover – There are some great examples in this thread, of great shooters and their grip techniques. And I get that this is no help……..but how in the world did the daughter of two of the best shooters on the planet end up with a grip like this? Must work.

 

[tarosean]

What these videos show me is the Miculeks are pointing their metacarpals in-line with the barrel rather than their strong-side thumbs. I believe they do that because it gives more grip-panel contact area, and because they shoot isosceles stance.

They are all employing the same basic grip. locking their weak hand wrist. What you are seeing is the difference in pistol grip angle, hand size, etc.

Should the strong-hand thumb be pointed in-line with the barrel, or should the strong-hand metacarpals be pointed in line with the barrel? It's either one or the other.

strong-hand metacarpals should naturally aline with the grip angle. The further away from vertical the more angled they become.

I shove my weak hand index finger into the web of my strong hand trigger finger/middle finger and roll my hand on the gun locking my wrist. This leaves my thumb and pad welded to the frame. My strong hand thumb is resting ontop of the safety and angled away from the barrel line.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Works the same.

Just tried shoving my support hand forward like in the video. Wow. Feels really kind of odd having it that far forward. Going to try it shooting and see how I do with it.

 

[tarosean]

Going to try it shooting and see how I do with it.

Yeah it will feel weird at first, esp when you are locked in.. It really shines when your shooting splits though.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I shove my weak hand index finger into the web of my strong hand trigger finger/middle finger

Yeah it will feel weird at first, esp when you are locked in.. It really shines when your shooting splits though.

I think I spoke too soon. Sticking my support hand index finger into the web between my middle and trigger finger is how I shoot also. I think maybe I had my support hand a bit too far forward is all.

I’m going to experiment a bit on the range before making any assumptions.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Westernrover – There are some great examples in this thread, of great shooters and their grip techniques. And I get that this is no help……..but how in the world did the daughter of two of the best shooters on the planet end up with a grip like this? Must work.





View attachment 852894

She’s getting her support hand as high and as far forward on the gun as she can. I’ll bet it works very well. The more of the gun you physically grasp, particularly out towards the muzzle, be it a rifle, pistol, or shotgun; the more control you will have over recoil.

 

[murf]

Westernrover – There are some great examples in this thread, of great shooters and their grip techniques. And I get that this is no help……..but how in the world did the daughter of two of the best shooters on the planet end up with a grip like this? Must work.





View attachment 852894

learnin from lena, that is kool! I just tried that grip on my glock 19 (dry fire). my fat fingers won't fit two on the front of the trigger, so I put the index finger in front of the middle finger. it works real good at putting down-force on the gun. i'm going to have to try this out, live fire, at the next range session.

thx for the info,

murf

 

[ATLDave]

Moving the left hand grip further forward (to and past the front of the trigger guard) does theoretically get you more leverage.* On the other hand, for most human-sized hands, it reduces the amount of contact area that the heel of the left hand can really get on the gun, and the amount of force that can be applied. For most people, it trades off some force and friction for leverage. Whether the trade is beneficial is kind of personal. A long time ago, I shot with one finger up on the trigger guard. I migrated towards a more rearward grip.

The other "thing" about getting contact points more forward is that you've also given your left hand more leverage to apply unwanted lateral inputs to the frame. Moving your left hand 1mm left or right just before the shot fires will move the muzzle slightly more if the fingers are out on the trigger guard or frame forward. This is similar to the tradeoffs of thumbrests, which allow more leverage with the left thumb during recoil, but can encourage or amplify "steering" problems for some people.

These are all things you kind of have to work through on your own. But it is very important to have some kind of objective feedback as you work through these things. Just because something "feels" faster or more controlled doesn't mean that it is. You need to pay a lot of attention to how the sights track in recoil, how reliably you can hit the grip (Lena's grip looks like a nightmare to nail every time) on the draw, what your splits are, etc.

* Though not as much as you might think. The really key leverage question with the left hand is how high the heel of the left hand can get. Having a forward cant of the wrist - almost universally recommended - means that the heel/base of thumb of the left hand is generally much higher than any fingertip.

 

[murf]

that left heel is way higher than any other two-handed grip I have seen. when I tried it, I had to pinch my index finger with my left thumb to keep it from hitting the slide. the thumb is up that high.

I can pull the gun left easier, but if I squeeze front/back rather than left/right the sights won't dive left. the draw is a bit "hit and miss" and will take a bit of practice to slam that index finger up under the frame in exactly the right spot.

we shall see,

murf

 

[murf]

and to stay on topic, I use the op's second grip option.

murf