question about soft cast vs. hard cast bullets

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BADUNAME71

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I have been trying to reload some 32-40 cartridges. In trying to solve the problem I posted about last week on key holeing impact.I decided I need both a heavier bullet and a larger bullet. I am using 165 gr, .321 soft cast bullet from Buffalo Arms. Only source I found for a larger (.322-.324) heavier (170gr) is a hard cast bullet from Midway .
My question is this....I really don't fully understand the difference between soft cast lead and hard cast lead bullets. Will I be ok with the hard cast bullets and exactly what is the difference between them?
Thanks in advance.
ron,ar
 
I would guess you need larger diameter bullet or a shorter one. Or maybe a harder bullet, or less velocity.
 
Based on the Brinnell Hardness rating of the lead alloy used to cast the bullets. Pure soft lead is roughly 5-6 bhn. Hard cast would be up around 15 bhn.
Imho as long as you are sized a couple thousandths of an inch over measured bore diameter, my rule of thumb is 1 bhn per hundred feet per second velocity. So 1200 fps needs 12bhn.
 
The choice of soft or hard lead is mostly dependent on your velocity. Soft lead bullets are normally driven at lower velocities because the pressure of the burning propellant obturates the bullet base to seal the bore. They lead the bore more when pushed to higher velocities. Hard cast bullets resist obturation at lower pressures(velocity) and will lead the bore due to gas cutting (bore isn't sealed and gas blows by). Gas checks will eliminate gas cutting.
 
Soft lead cannot be gas checked, it would prevent obturation and would lead the bore even worse. Soft lead is not cast, it is swaged. Most swaged bullets have dish-like (hollow) bases to facilitate obturation. Low velocity is the only way minimize leading.
 
Try Missouri bullet works. They have some. Great people. They offer THR members a 5% discount. PM me if you need the code.

http://www.missouribullet.com/results.php?pageNum_rsCWResults=1&category=6&secondary=36
These are 170gr.
They have them in both Lead lubed and HI Tek coated.
Coated $55/500
You can have 2000 shipped for $14. (2500-3000) if you call them and they are all the same flavor.
I have shoot lots of their 9mm/.357/.45 bullets and have been happy with them.
 
ron said:
I have been trying to reload some 32-40 cartridges. In trying to solve the problem I posted about last week on key holeing impact.I decided I need both a heavier bullet and a larger bullet. I am using 165 gr, .321 soft cast bullet from Buffalo Arms. Only source I found for a larger (.322-.324) heavier (170gr) is a hard cast bullet from Midway .
My question is this....I really don't fully understand the difference between soft cast lead and hard cast lead bullets. Will I be ok with the hard cast bullets and exactly what is the difference between them?
Thanks in advance.
ron,ar
Click to expand...
It really doesn't matter whether your shooting hard or soft bullets. What does however matter is the diameter of the bullet is at least groove diameter, and not over .003 over groove diameter..001 or .002 over is to be preferred.
Bullet weight anywhere between 160 and 180 grs should work just fine. Keep the velocity moderate as the velocity range of that cartridge averages around 1700 fps.
Be sure and give your cases enough flare to let the bullet seat without shaving the base or the sides of the bullet, and don't use any more crimp than is necessary. Many good cast bullet loads are wrecked by applying to much crimp.
Given the problems you reported earlier, you may want to go in that barrel and do some serious lead mining, as it's possible leading is what caused your first problems and will only continue to aggrevate things.
 
+1 on Mo Bullet. I shoot brin 18 most of the time (9mm,.38spl,.357,.40S&W,.44mag,.380 and .32ACP and .45colt. No problems with any of them.
 
Swaged is generally near pure lead: BHN: 5(-)
True Soft Cast is ~30:1 lead:tin, or about BHN: 6
"Air Cooled" is generally found to be Lyman #2, or BHN: 15 (sometimes aka soft cast)
"Hard Cast" is BHN: 20 and above.
29djklk.jpg

That said, very few casters will send you anything less than Lyman#2/BN-15 since anything much softer than that will get banged up in loose-fill shipping boxes. Those that do send true soft cast (30:1) will do so with each bullet in its own styrofoam insert. (45-70 guys buying Postell bullets get them this way)

UNLESS you [the OP] have really severe leading upon looking at the bore, you don't have a lead hardness issue causing this tumbling. I suspect you are not driving the 165gr bullets hard enough to stabilize in the barrel twist.

- Do you know the twist rate? (It needs to be at least 1:14), and...
- Is your velocity at least 1,400fps? Lyman#2 will handle that with ease.**
(I note that your previous post has you using 11.4gr/IMR4227.
Kick that up to the classic 14.0 grains and try that.)
http://www.chuckhawks.com/32-40WCF.htm

That may solve both your spin rate and any bore sealing issues.



** I'm currently driving 200gr 44-40's at 1,300fps using 30:1 (BHN of 5.5). Hardness is likely not your problem.
 
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I've never had good luck with "hard" commercially cast bullets in any revolver. They resist being swaged by the powder to the point that the forcing cone up to about halfway in the barrel is coated with soldered lead. Hard bullets seem to work great in auto loaders but not in revolvers. Commercial swaged bullets do work fine for standard loads and work great in autos.

The best success that I've had was/is with home cast WW metal (the old lead & antimony ones). Even the plain based bullets thus cast don't cause a leading problem at magnum velocities in the .357 and .44mag. But softer bullets are difficult to find as the producers are too caught up on this "hard lead trip".
 
Actually "Hard Cast" and "Soft Cast" means nothing. There is no point where a bullet measured in BHN is "officially" determined to be "soft" and/or what BHN a bullet becomes "hard". The term "Hard Cast" has only been used in the last few years, and prior to that here were just two types of lead bullets; cast and swaged. Yep there were different alloys, hardnesses of bullets but they were often described by the alloy (20-1, 15-1, Lyman #2, etc.). Newer casters often think harder is better and commercial casters jumped on that bandwagon and started giving the customers what they want; "Hard Cast" bullets. Now the term is used for any cast bullet regardless of the BHN.

Just a WAG, but if asked I'd say a soft cast bullet is around 8-10 BHN (good 45 ACP fodder), and a hard cast would be 16-20 BHN.

For a new lead bullet shooter/caster I would suggest one concentrate on bullet to gun fi rather than bullet hardness. FWIW I cast for several years just using wheel weights with a ?? BHN. Sometimes I inadvertently mixed some WWs with my berm mined lead. I cast and shot mostly .44 Magnums and .357 Magnums mostly at Magnum velocities and I had very little if any leading...
 
Key holing is caused by under sized bullets, oversized barrel and sometimes excessively low velocity. Not lubing will do it too. So if those 165's are not lubed, they need it. Ran into that during my BP cartridge experiment years ago. Cast 405's out of a TrapDoor key holed at 25 yards. No lube. No internet to read either.
.321" diameter is far too small. Needs .324".
There's 170 grain cast data on Reloader's Nest.
The difference between soft cast lead and hard cast lead is the amount of antimony in the mix. Like mdi says, there's no rule or ruling body that determines what 'hard' or 'soft' is.
 
mdi said:
Actually "Hard Cast" and "Soft Cast" means nothing. There is no point where a bullet measured in BHN is "officially" determined to be "soft" and/or what BHN a bullet becomes "hard". The term "Hard Cast" has only been used in the last few years, and prior to that here were just two types of lead bullets; cast and swaged. Yep there were different alloys, hardnesses of bullets but they were often described by the alloy (20-1, 15-1, Lyman #2, etc.). Newer casters often think harder is better and commercial casters jumped on that bandwagon and started giving the customers what they want; "Hard Cast" bullets. Now the term is used for any cast bullet regardless of the BHN.

Just a WAG, but if asked I'd say a soft cast bullet is around 8-10 BHN (good 45 ACP fodder), and a hard cast would be 16-20 BHN.

For a new lead bullet shooter/caster I would suggest one concentrate on bullet to gun fi rather than bullet hardness. FWIW I cast for several years just using wheel weights with a ?? BHN. Sometimes I inadvertently mixed some WWs with my berm mined lead. I cast and shot mostly .44 Magnums and .357 Magnums mostly at Magnum velocities and I had very little if any leading...
Click to expand...
Yep. They're very arbitrary terms and used more for marketing than anything else. Soft/hard cast has had different meanings over the past 50 years
 
I agree with Don, you don't need a heavier bullet, 165 was standard for .32-40 repeaters. Scheutzen used heavier bullets but if you are into that, you will soon be casting your own bullets and studying size and lube closely.

There ARE sources for storebought bullets. Unfortunately, my regular supplier went out of business after he ruined his back humping lead every day.
I find Missouri Bullets to have a 165 gr .321" which is too small BUT they say they will take orders for different sizes and different alloys. http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=175&category=6&secondary=35&keywords=
I would try their coated bullets which seem to cover a multitude of sins.
http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=261&category=20&secondary=36&keywords=
Note that they will sell sample packs of 100 so you don't get stuck with 450 bullets you have given up on.
http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=70&category=22&secondary=&keywords=

Beartooth has a 170 gr .323" gas check. I don't know why anybody would say not to use a gas check bullet where available. It isn't necessary at .32-40 velocity but it can help.
http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=175&category=6&secondary=35&keywords=

Moyers has 165 and 190 gr gas check bullets, but they list them for 8mm. That is ok. Diameter is what counts, not name. But they are roundnose bullets which some would worry about loading in a tube magazine.
http://moyerscastbullets.com/rifle.html
 
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Another thought...key holing is caused by unstable bullets. #1 priority to help ensure a stable bullet, is to pick the length of the bullet suitable for the twist of your barrel.
 
Unless that Winchester barrel has kind of unravelled over the past 80 years or he got stuck with some very odd 165 gr bullets, I think we can assume a suitable rifling twist.

As MEHavey said, 14 gr of 4227 would be about right.
I loaded some .30-30 with that and cast bullets for great shooting.
 
Thanks guys for all the input. I was not concerned too much about the hard lead vrs. the soft lead except that I did not know the exact difference. The real issue is that after slugging the bore, I believe I need a larger bullet. The ones I find at Midway are anywhere from .322 to .324 but all listed as "hard" cast Bullets. I just was not sure what the difference is. Jim I will look at the links you listed and see what they offer.
Thanks again
ron
 
I slugged the barrel (if I did it right) and it measures
at .316-.317 grooves and .320 on the lands.
Click to expand...
That being the case, the Buff Arms 165gr at .321" is just fine.

Get that pressure and speed up. Therein is the
most likely problem with a 1-in-16 twist barrel.
 
another failure

I loaded 4 cartridges today with 14 gr. 4227 IMR as per Chuck Hawkes article mentioned here. Used the only bullets I have 165gr, .321 lead cast from Buffalo Arms.Still no good. Could defiantly tell the difference in the load over the 11.4 gr previously tried, but still all 4 keyhole badly. Should have larger bullets/heavier (170gr, .322)..Gotta have a day or two of good weather so I can get this project fixed.
30ucqs4.jpg
 
I would say that now is the time to have the gun looked at by a gunsmith (not to be confused with a gun parts changer).
I would be suspicious of the crown, or possibly even a ring or bulge in the barrel somewhere along the way.
The 32-40 is one of the most accurate cartridges known to man..
 
If it's keyholing now (given the good bore/bullet dimension match you cited),
larger/longer bullets are going to be even more unstable.

I'd step back, take a breath, and consider Don M's suggestion.
 
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