Question regarding doing custom work on a 1911 Commander model.

[ThinkingBuddha]

I am considering purchasing my first 1911. I after renting and shooting several at my local gun range over the last few months, I decided a steel frame bobtail commander size 1911 best suits my needs. I find it to be the best compromise for carry, home defense and a range gun

I had narrowed my choice down to two models; a Dan Wesson V-Bob or a Kimber Super carry pro hd. I love the size, balance and accuracy of these two beauties. Ed Browns, Nighthawks and other semi-custom guns are out of my price range.

I came across a barely used American Classic Commander for $300 .

Here is my thought.
1. Purchase the gun = $300
2. Send it to a master gun smith (The prices below are from John Harrison’s website)
Install Heinie front & rear sight in Tritium Straight-8 = $280
Function Reliability Package = $95
Perform Basic trigger job to pistols using original parts as feasible = $120
Supply & fit Ed Brown Bobtail M/S housing = $150
Matte Blue all surfaces = $155

This brings my estimated cost is approximately $1100. I haven’t shot it yet though, so I might remove or add to the above work list.

Now here is my question. Will such an upgrade bring the American Classic Commander close enough a Dan Wesson V-Bob or a Kimber Super carry pro at a much cheaper price, or is it just lipstick on a pig?

I am very new to hand guns. In fact I purchased my first gun (a shotgun) this February, so your advice will be very valuable.

 

[JTQ]

From the FAQ section at Harrison Custom.

To assure your satisfaction, work will only be done to 1911 pistols made by Colt, Springfield Armory, Les Baer, Ed Brown, Nighthawk, Wilson Combat, SVI and STI forged steel frame pistols in factory original unmodified condition.

I'm sure you would be able to find somebody that would do the work for you. If it comes out the way you want it you would have a pistol of great value to you. If you ever decide to sell it, it is unlikely you would get what you paid for the custom work.

A good base for Harrison Custom work like you want would be a Colt Commander (model #04691). They can be had for $800(ish). Your overall cost would be much higher, but you'd then have a Colt customized by Harrison Custom, which would always have value.

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtPistols/Colt1991Series.aspx

http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/default.aspx?item=O4691

 

[ThinkingBuddha]

Thanks JTQ, I missed reading that section on Harrison's website, but anyway the reason I quoted his website is because the services and their corresponding prices are listed very elegantly there. I found several other gunsmiths with very good reviews on google as well.

Thanks for bringing up the resale value; I had not thought of that.

 

[MattTheHat]

I wouldn't personally put that much custom work into that type of 1911, and I honestly don't think you'll find a master smith that would be willing to do so either.

Don't get me wrong, I probably couldn't pass up the $300 pistol, I just wouldn't be willing to invest the money and considerable wait involved in customizing it.

If you have a little mechanical ability you might enjoy doing the beavertail install and bob tail conversion yourself. Beavertail jigs are pretty cheap, as is the bob tail jig. Those items, and a couple of good files and a drill press (or a machinist who will drill the MSH pin hole for you) and you've got everything you need to do it yourself. Well, you'd need to have it refinished when you're done. Though, that can also be done in the typical garage shop.


-Matt

 

[JTQ]

I bring up resale since many discuss it, but I personally don't consider it much myself. I always look at it as the value to me. Still, I would have a hard time putting that much money into an American Classic.

At the end of all the work, I'd still know it was an American Classic no matter how well it worked or fit my needs. They seem more like the "shoot as is" kind of pistols or the "let me experiment on this gun myself (because I don't want to mess up a nicer pistol trying)" type.

If I were to have that much work done on an American Classic (or any of the other "economy grade" pistols) I'd always think, "why did I spend all that time (months, many months sometimes) and money and not have what I really wanted?".

 

[MattTheHat]

Thinking about what I just posted, you'd also need a Dremel tool with a small sanding drum to profile the top of the beaver tail safety (the bottom side should be profiled too, and the Dremel is a pretty convenient way to get most of the work done).

It can be done without the Dremel, of course, it just takes a bit longer (and you're far less likely to screw up). A sandpaper assortment and some dowel rods can do the trick too. I find deep well sockets wrapped with sandpaper a pretty convenient way to do it.


-Matt

 

[ThinkingBuddha]

Thanks MattTheHat I just googled up how to fit a bobtail on a 1911. It looks like something I could do. I have most of the tools needed; I now need to get the jigs, bobtail and muster the courage to cut into a 1911.

 

[9mmepiphany]

If you plan on keeping it forever, going cheap and doing the work yourself makes a lot of sense and you'll learn a lot about how your gun works...or doesn't...when you are done. Plus you'll have a certain pride of ownership/workmanship.

...if not, it is just lipstick on a pig and you'll likely devalue the original gun...but what do you have to lose with only $300 invested to start

As you've found out, most good 1911 pistolsmiths won't work on off-brand 1911s {as a rule,the top tier guys will only work on a very specific brands} and many won't even do work on a cast frame...it has to do with the warranty they extend and the reflection on their reputation.

If you want a quality 1911 to you can count on for carry, the Dan Wesson VBOB is an very good choice

Here is a very good article on choosing your first 1911

 

[CraigC]

I've never had a custom 1911 built but I have had some custom revolvers built so here are some thoughts in general.

1. Never enter into it with resale as a primary consideration. You will never recoup your money, although work by well known `smith's brings more than they ever did in the past. Getting what you want at a price you can stomach should be the primary concern.

2. It should be something you can't just go out and buy at a similar cost. Don't spend X money on Y gun to make it as good as Z gun if it costs the same as just buying Z gun.

3. The cost of your base gun should be a factor but quality should be more important. I've got a $200 Single Six that I would not hesitate to spend $2000 on to have it converted to a five-shot .41Spl because the platform is worthy of such work. One with half a brain would never even consider such work on a $200 Heritage Rough Rider. Consider how mcuh work it will take to get your base gun up to acceptable standards, versus buying a better base gun to start with.

4. I've never even heard of American Classic and would be highly skeptical that it would make a good basis for a custom gun. Your gunsmith should point you in the right direction if it is not.

 

[Hoth206]

Remember, there's nothing saying you have to do ALL the work at one time. You may want to try buying a basic Colt or Springfield and making the upgrades that you find really desirable as you go along. That way you'll get what you KNOW you want, rather than what you THINK you want at the outset.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Believe me there really isn't any hurry.

I shot a lot of plain 1911s and did a lot of reading (this was before the internet) before buying my first 1911. It was a duty gun and and the only game in town was the Colts. Mine was a Combat Commander which went straight from the store to a smith for:
1. tuned extractor
2. polished feed
3. tuned action
4. long trigger
5. extended tang (there were no beaver tails then)
6. de-activated grip safety
7. S&W K-frame sights

I shot this for years while watching the after market accessories develop and deciding what I really needed or wanted...it takes years and thousands of rounds to figure it out

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

These guns strike me as something to use and enjoy "as is," not for extensive customization/rebuilding. Most top pistolsmiths will not want to do this kind of work on them anyway.

Function Reliability Package = $95

I have a slight issue with this, although it is common in the business. If the gun is reliable, no further work is needed. If it is not reliable, it needs to be repaired as it is not functioning as designed.

 

[orionengnr]

Just my .02...

I paid about $1100 for my used 10mm CBOB. I doubt that it has lost much in the way of value, especially since the price of the new ones keeps going up.

Honestly, you can put $1100 into a $300 1911, but it will be worth...a bit more than $300 and a whole lot less than $1100.

If I were you, I'd spend the $300 and buy it as a project gun. Maybe try to do the bobtail on it, and so on, a bit at a time.

But in the mean time, keep my eye open for a used DW.

 

[MICHAEL T]

American classic is a great pistol But don't put $1100 in to one . I have one I will be doing some changes . to mine But no where near $1100. You can install Wilson best hammer sear disconnector and trigger For around 150 bucks Wilson has a round butt Main spring Housing Same idea as Brown only not as radical cutting about 60 bucks .
Need new recoil spring . sear spring and main spring. Sights you can buy and install of have local in stalled .

I have the dove tail specs on my Board http: //bersachat.com All the above can be done for less than 500 New Commander American classic be less than 500 (you do work. ) and has the beaver tail and other right from factory. I spent all last week end showing the new American Classic Amigo (officer size ) at the NRA convention . It drew lots of attention also.

Any other questions about American Classic PM me or visit bersachat lots of AC owners and lovers their.

 

[451 Detonics]

Wilson makes a beavertail safety that does not require modding the frame. Cylinder and Slide makes great drop in hammer/sear kits and there are tons of prefit trigger available. I would look at this as an opportunity to learn and start improving it yourself rather than paying the kind of money your are looking at to have the work done. First purchase should be a copy of Hallock's 45 Auto Handbook...it will walk you through all the mods you want to make.

http://www.amazon.com/Hallocks-auto-handbook-Kenneth-Hallock/dp/B0006Y15G8

I am not a gunsmith by any means but by using Hallock's and info from a few online sources I built my 1911 competition 38 Super. Was the first 1911 I built starting with just an unfitted slide and frame.

 

[9mmepiphany]

MICHAEL T - question, since you seem to have some experience with this manufacturer and I am unfamiliar with the company, where are the frames and slides manufactured?

...are the frames and holes bases on mil-spec so it will accept most aftermarket parts?
...what is the radius of the rear tangs?
...which dovetail cuts do they use for the sighhts

 

[MICHAEL T]

Metro Arms company started in 2008 They make American Classic . The Firestorm rollmark was dropped for American import in Jan 2010 It is still used in Philippines They like the name over their.. Approx 1000 guns are imported a month total of all models
Of course their Imported by Eagle Imports who also import the Bersa . Their is no connection between Bersa and American Classic other than same importer and warranty centers. Some large on line dealers keep advertising as Bersa American Classic. THIS IS NOT CORRECT THEY ARE 2 DIFFERENT MANUFACTURES IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD.

Frames and slides are all made in Philippines By metro arms my understanding
Frames are cast 4140 Steel
Slides are 4140 Hammer Forged Steel
Barrel FORGED STEEL
Pistols are 1911 compatible I took my Colt and My American classic #78 swapped parts They interchanges and passed safety checks. Very early ones had different threads in frame for Grip bushings . This was corrected

This from factory on sights .


ACII, AC Commander, AC Amigo, AC Trophy (AC45G2,ACC45,ACA45,ACT45)
Front Sight(Dovetail) Rear Sight(Dovetail)
0.330" x 65 Deg. 0.495" x 65 Deg.

AC GOV'T (AC45G)
Front Sight Rear Sight(Dovetail)
Fixed 0.3465" x 65 Deg.


I hope to have American Classic board up and running by Sept. We doing preliminary work now as time allows .
Iam not a employee of Eagle Imports but I have a good relationship with them. Because of my Bersa boards. I was at the NRA convention working in their booth this year and in past.