Question when it comes to reliability testing.

Status
Not open for further replies.
N

Nushif

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2010
Messages
3,082
Location
Corvallis, OR
I have been reliability testing my CCO 1911 and have been keeping track of the failures it had.

But what I find puzzling is that none of them happen to me.The gun hasn't jammed gummed up or anything for me, yet, but has already failed three times from others shooting it, usually something to do with very light lube and not a lot of cleaning coupled with a very bad grip.

So my question here is, should I consider MY gun reliable for ME, which it is even though for some reason it jams for others when it gets gummed up? I can shoot it just fine afterwards again, too.

What do you think?
 
It really should work for anybody anytime/everytime. Maybe they're deploying some of the controls inadvertently.. I don't know.
 
Are you present when others have misfires? If it is happening during the same shooting sessions I would lean toward a poor grip by the shooter. If not I would be concerned with what others are doing to jack up your perfectly functioning gun.
Few semi autos will be reliable with a poor grip so I would continue to consider reliability with you being the shooter and work on fixing your friends.
 
Are you present when others have misfires?
Click to expand...

Yes, as a matter of fact I am. And when it does happen it is usually brand new shooters, kids or my wife, who can jam a Glock 19.
It usually happens with either a teacup or weak grip, as well. So I would go with a grip issue as well, but there are tons of stories going around about "unjammable" guns by anyone using any grip. I'd like to achieve that kind of reliability in mine, but I am really starting to think that a semi-auto does need some kind of grip to work properly.

It's really more a peace of mind question. I know I can use my gun. It just bugs me that it looks unreliable. Because funny enough I can pick it up and no matter how gummed up it is, or little lube it has it runs just fine.
 
What's the intent behind your question?
If to determine that the gun is reliable enough for YOU to carry, and if it is in YOUR hands, what's the problem? :)

Denis
 
The intent here would be several points, let me crystallize them:

Reliability testing, is it a tailored activity to the individual or is it a chase of perfection in all cases for all individuals?

A "reliable gun," is it reliable in the hands of the user or is it universally reliable?

And most importantly for me, is my 1911 reliable? Data says no. Experience by me says yes.

So the intent here is to clear up this concept of "reliable" and "reliability testing" ... is the approach a purely quantitative one ignoring causes such as shooter, are we married to mechanics alone? Or is it qualitative, are going post-newton in our science?
 
What sort of failures? A stovepipe can be a grip thing. If the slide launched off the frame you have other issues.
 
Grab a revolver, swing out the cylinder and load the cartridges backward. If you can picture an inept person doing precisely that then no firearm can be considered Fool Proof.

Reliability is a whole other matter, to which I say if it works for you every time then you have your answer. If others are part of the SD equation with your CCO, it may not be the solution needed.
 
Failures to go into battery. Never happened to me, but there have been five thus far, out of about 200 rounds.
 
I has been my experience that if a handgun, especially a 1911 is unreliable on one shooter's hands, but reliable in anothers'...that there is a problem with the gun.

My feeling is that it is safer to believe that you are doing something which allows the gun to function in sprite of an issue, rather than believe that something everyone else is doing is causing the issue.

But then, I'm pretty conservative about what I find acceptable in a gun I'd bet my life on...likely because I've personally seen a lot of guns fail in use...in ways I would have never imagined prior
 
What 9mmepiphany and twinny said.

Yeah, it might work 100% for you, under ideal range conditions. But if it's failed for any reason other than ammo with multiple other users then it's marginal. What if you have to fire it under duress, in an odd position, or with some other factors that take you and the gun out of the ideal set of conditions?
 
In a defensive situation, you can never be certain of obtaining just the right grip or stance.

You can hope for it and you can plan for it and you can even train for it...but assurance isn't a given. It's been said that no plan survives first contact with the enemy.

If a pistol that is to be carried for such emergencies requires just the right grip in order to function, a question begs to be asked.

"How can ya trust a snake like that?"
 
Nushif said:
Failures to go into battery. Never happened to me, but there have been five thus far, out of about 200 rounds.
Click to expand...

Well, if it happens after they've operated the slide than it could very easily be user error.

Failing to go into battery halfway through a clip seems like an odd thing to depend on grip, less they're coming into contact with the slide, and I would think they'd notice and mention something like that.

Are you shooting the same ammo? That could make a difference. As could cleaning frequency I suppose.

Also I had a Taurus 1911 that wouldn't reliably feed the top round unless there was a little pressure on the magazine from below. Does your or their grip contact the magazine in some way? I could see a the gun just not quite managing to jam a round in there.

In any case if this trend continues I think you'd want to figure out exactly what's going on. Even if it continues to work for you, if you don't know what it is you're doing right (like with my pressure on the mag) than maybe when it really matters you won't do whatever it is. It could also indicate that there is an underlying problem that might get worse such that it suddenly affects you as well.
 
It usually happens with either a teacup or weak grip, as well.
Click to expand...
If you are present as they're firing, how is it they're using poor technique? If someone's very new to shooting the first thing they'd be getting from me is some coaching on grip, stance, sight picture, and trigger control. Letting folks shoot poorly seems like a waste of range time and ammo. I don't want to spend my precious hours at the range watching someone get frustrated, sore, and intimidated by the gun.

Having said that, I have to agree with 9mmepiphany and 1911Tuner. It SHOULD be reliable so long as they aren't doing something to physically interfere with proper operation (like accidentally pressing controls or interfering with the slide).
 
My feeling is that it is safer to believe that you are doing something which allows the gun to function in sprite of an issue, rather than believe that something everyone else is doing is causing the issue.
Click to expand...

Totally agreed.

I can't watch my buddy get a jam and say "Well yeah, but you probably limp-wristed it, man!" I have to assume if I ever need it, I am sweating and may have a looser grip.

Same goes for any issue...going into battery, slide locking back before the last round because their thumb engaged toe slide release lever, or if the mag falls out because their thumb bumped the mag release during recoil.....all "user error" technically. But just because it has never happened to me during range time doesn't mean it can't happen. If it can happen to your newb friend, it can happen to you at a time of crisis. And Murphy says it will. Of course doing drills and timed events (artificially induced stress) can help you also find these quirks.

I would also have to consider the sample size. If I have 10,000 rounds through a gun with no jams, and let my friend shoot it, who gets a couple jams in 100 rounds, I would probably not lose faith in that gun. However, if my range buddy has about 200 rounds through one of my guns and I have 1000 rounds, and he has had 3 jams and I have had none, well, just because they all happened to HIM does not restore my confidence. Probability-wise, you would guess that I would have a couple jams, and he would have 1, but random events don't necessarily spread themselves out nice and even over the course of time. It is entirely feasible that they all happened to him out of sheer bad luck, just like it is entirely feasible to roll dice 36 times and get snake eyes 4 or 5 times. It "should" only happen once, and maybe you will roll the dice 100 more times and get NO snake eyes, but they happen when they happen.
 
Wapato said:
Failing to go into battery halfway through a clip seems like an odd thing to depend on grip, less they're coming into contact with the slide, and I would think they'd notice and mention something like that.
Click to expand...
1911s don't feed and aren't loaded via clips

Also I had a Taurus 1911 that wouldn't reliably feed the top round unless there was a little pressure on the magazine from below. Does your or their grip contact the magazine in some way? I could see a the gun just not quite managing to jam a round in there.
Click to expand...
That is a manufacturing defect, either with the magazine catch or the cutout in the magazine body...depending if it is occurring with more than one magazine. You can either address it by trying different magazines or calling their CS to have it rectified
 
Just got back form some more testing.

I fired the gun deliberately with a good grip. No malfunctions.
One handed rapid fire, both sides. No malfunction.
Maximum limpwrist, two finger hold only: No malfunctions.
Maximum limpwrist, two finger hold only, rapid fire: No malfunctions.
Maximum limpwrist, two fingers hold only, rapid fire upside down: No malfunctions.

Flying ashtray hollowpoints: same tests as above: No mafunctions.

As for why people are firing my gun without proper hold desite me being there, there is only so much you can do when you're taking a Japanese girl out for some gun tourism who simply. will. not. take her time to reaquire her grip after each round. I coached, I showed her how to hold it, I demonstrate, I talk to her while doing it, but simply put the gun is utterly alien to her.

I am baffled. I managed dropping the gun twice today because I tried applying zero firmness to it, and I can't make it fail. I don't mind having dropped it, the gun is fine and is going to get a refinish anyways (not that I *like* seeing my gun on the ground), but I just can't wrap my head around it. When I shoot this gun it will not fail. I hand it to someone else and it develops about a 5% failure rate.
 
That is the sticking point isn't it?

It isn't as if only some people are having problems with it...you are the only one not having problems with it

If you are looking at having it refinished anyway...and it has to be detail striped for that... you might as well have a knowledgeable 1911 guy go over it first
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

K
  • Locked
  • Poll
1911 reliability
Replies
44
Views
2K
Handguns: Autoloaders
1911Tuner
1
N
  • Locked
How did she do it?!
Replies
28
Views
1K
Handguns: Autoloaders
Greg528iT
G
H
  • Locked
Reliability of G26 & Short Barrel Gold Dots?
Replies
9
Views
544
Handguns: Autoloaders
ATLDave
A
M
  • Locked
semi-auto reliability
Replies
3
Views
630
Handguns: Autoloaders
Roswell_Kid
R
R
  • Locked
Reliability
Replies
59
Views
2K
Handguns: Autoloaders
Rexster
Rexster
Top Bottom
Back