Questions about. 357 mag reloading data

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Mixed Nuts said:
Someguy2800, I may try 125 load after I'm no longer shooting smokey lubed bullets. One hotshot move at a time.
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Give it a try sometime, it's pretty impressive. The odd thing about a 357 is that because of the extra powder space provided by the shorter 125 grain bullets, you can actually get quite a bit more ft lbs of energy from a 125 vs a 158. A max or near max load of h110 under a 125 or 110 is ridiculous fun.
 
Ah yes, another thread that started as a load for 357 mag with #9 powder has morphed into a wet vs dry brass cleaning discussion.

They only thing better would be if Dillon made their own Wet Tumbler with SS pins and magic Blue cleaning solution. Then the planets would align and all the Smurfs would rejoice!!:rofl:


Dancing_smurfs.png
 
Okay gentlemen, I've got another .357 reloading question...

I now have the Lee second addition of Modern Reloading, the lyman 50th addition reloading handbook, the lyman loading data booklet for popular revolver calibers, and the photocopied classic: the complete reloading manual for the. 357 magnum.

There is a trend in these books for jacketed loads of .357 magnum vs lead loads.

And it is a confusing trend. The jacketed loads tend to be higher power loads as compared to lead loads of the same weight.

I don't get it. Why would the manuals consistently give higher powder grain max loads for jacketed bullets as compared to lead bullets of the same weight?

Don't jacketed bullets generate more pressure than lead bullets of equivalent weight?

I see loads for jacketed hollowpoints - which must seat as least as deep as a LSWC if not deeper - that list a higher max charge of a given powder than a LSWC of equivalent weight using the same powder.

I thought the rule of thumb was: any jacketed bullet load data of a given weight can be used for a lead bullet of the same weight.

I understood this to be true because jacketed and solid copper bullets were harder and generated more pressure than did lead bullets.

What's the deal?
 
There is more friction with jacketed bullets so it takes more of charge to get it moving out of the case.

Yes, jacketed data can be used with hard cast bullets, you will probably end up with more velocity.
 
The maximums listed in the manual may have been all they were able to get out of that bullet before accuracy dropped off or it started to lead. I've noticed alot of manuals are pretty conservative with lead. I've shot very little lead in 357 and only moderate loads so I don't have anything to add on running hot cast loads in 357.
 
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Mixed Nuts said:
I thought the rule of thumb was: any jacketed bullet load data of a given weight can be used for a lead bullet of the same weight.
Click to expand...
No.
Plastic deformation-This whole relationship centers around the elastic limit for the alloy you are using and what the elastic limit is. the elastic limit is the point at which stresses can occur to an object and it will return to it's relative shape. Once you have reached the deformation stage it no longer returns to relative shape. this is a very simplified version of this topic as it pertains to engineering mechanics of materials.
This is meant to be a guide and to keep you within safe/acceptable limits for pressure and alloy for your purposes. Obturated bullets do not mean that the shape has went through plastic deformation, just that it has expanded and stayed within the elastic limits of the alloy.
The formula does not take into account other factors that aide in reducing friction and thus combined forces on the cast slug.

Another factor not talked about is the pressure curve of the powder/cartridge combination. Does it spike quickly or is it a gradual increase (full case of slower powder). Protection of the bullet base can also be a factor, we routinely do this by gas-checking.

W296 Example Old357WinData.JPG
 
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Rule3, once a person sees this general point, lead vs jacketed, then a lot of the confusing load data begins to make sense.

Companies like hornady, who do not make hard cast bullets, offer no decent cast lead load data. Why would they? not in their self interest. They offer crummy data on their swaged frontier slugs. But that's it. They're not invested in getting people good data so much as selling them hornady bullets. The same seems true for speer, nosler, and sierra. Their lead .357 loads suck, but, surprise, they don't sell hardcast lead bullets.

RCBS and Lyman make cast lead molds, so they offer good, high power lead load data. This is true for lee as well. These three outfits have listed load data that sends cast lead 158 .357s at over 1300 fps.

If you look to the big bullet companies, they'll make you think more the 5grains of unique will blow your face off. It's a joke.

Someguy2800, I think it may often be about corporate self interest and money.

243winxb, you post is interesting, but it seems like a fragment of a larger manual. I've got RCBS data telling me I can max load 17 grains of w296 under a 160grain cast swc. What manual are you referencing above?
 
243winxb, will check back for the data. Must have missed that one.

Will follow your sage advice to work up.
 
Sometimes the folks working up loads just quit earlier with lead.

Back in the days before I started reloading, Remington's fastest 240 Gr .44 Mag factory load was a gas checked lead bullet. Because it is slipperier, it could be driven faster than jacketed. Pressure built a little slower. Kicked like a mule in my Winchester Model 94.
 
Okay, loaded 300 rounds .357 using 5 powders. 2400, imr4227, w296, accu.#9, and unique.

Cast performance 158 swc. 2400 And unique used small p primers, all others magnum primers.

First 100 rounds were 2400. Fired a wide range but found 13.8 grains and 14.4 grains to be most accurate. Good powder and I like it.

Then went to unique, fired load, 6 grains was okay - but like a pop gun after the 2400. Grouped okay.

THEN... Fired 6.2 gr unique and all six bullets grouped well off the the right of my point of aim! What?

THEN... Fired 6.4 unique and same thing! What?

THEN... worried the unique was messed up, fired my first loads of imr 4227, and they did the same thing. A ragged group well off point of aim but high... what I mean to say here is that the group's were not all off point of aim in the same place.

Gun is quite dirty buy looks and feels intact. Nothing was dropped or bumped. Called of session with a pile of unfired ammo.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED?
 
Yes, it was leading. And a lot of leading.

I'm going to need some kind of solution to it.

As of right now, I've run a whole package of Tetra Cloth - as patches - lead removal cloth down the barrel and it is still leaded over.

Also, there is a small deposit of lead ringing the forcing cone, and lead rings in each cylinder.

Anybody have a cleaning suggestion? I hate putting the piece up dirty, but I'm out solutions tonight.

I'll surf for some answers, but any advice would be appreciated.

Funny outing today at the range. Got a good load but it looks like it may have leaded up the works. One step forward, two steps back...
 
If it was not leaded after the full power 2400 loads, then leaded up after the Unique Loads, the bullets are too hard for the lower pressure loads.

If they leaded from the git go, it may be a poor fit. Do you know what the revolvers throats measure? What did the bullets measure? What BHN?
 
Get your self some Copper ChoyBoy scrubbing pads. Make sure it's the solid copper and not steel plated. Then take a strand and wrap it around your wire brush and scrub with it. The use of Kroil will also help penetration between the lead and bore and make it release easier, too.
 
Can't remember for sure but for some reason I was thinking Laser Cast bullets were really hard like BHN 21.(may be mistaken on this) That might be part of your problem. Harder is not always better.

A bullet that is to hard won't obturate properly and will suffer gas cutting, which leads to leading.

Excellent info about cast bullets

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm


Capture11.JPG

I had good results with some of RMRs plated 158s in .357
No leading issues
They have these now
https://rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets...-plated-flat-point-plated-new/?v=7516fd43adaa
$55 for 500 shipped (before the THR 5% discount 52.25 after)

I liked these from MBC as well
http://missouribullet.com/details.php?rodId=221&category=5&secondary=10&keywords=
the 140s were a nice compromise between 125s and 158s. Their 158 SWC shot well for me also
http://missouribullet.com/details.php?rodId=213&category=5&secondary=10&keywords=

Liked these to
http://www.acmebullet.com/bullets-reloading-brass/38-CAL-Lead-Cast-Bullets/38-158-SWC-NLG

The above are around $44 for 500 + shipping
Less expensive than the Oregon Trail Laser casts and coated to boot.
 
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Walkalong, when it leaded is an unknown. I fired all the 2400 loads without problem. That was 100 rounds total in ten round sets. And the last 2400 set -which was 10 rounds- 14.8 grains charged, fired accurately. But whether it was leading a little the whole time, and just got too leaded on the second set - 10 rounds - of unique, or whether that first set of unique just dumped enough lead to cover the rifling, I dunno.

Your questions are good ones, but I don't know any answers except that the bullets, LSWC from cast performance, are supposed to be BNH 18.

Blue68f100, I did this, drove out and got this stuff after doing a web search. And it worked! But man, it was still a lot of scrubbing. Felt a little weird being so rough on the gun. After a while, the flakes of lead that came out, looked to be strips as wide as the rifling cuts down the barrel.

Someguy2800, this is good advice and thanks for taking the time to post it. Leading is no joke, and i'd like to avoid it going forward.

Dudedog, thanks for the links. I'm going to check that stuff. Honestly, right now I'm thinking about a bulk buy of 158 jacketed soft points from everglades. But I won't decide tonight. Still kinda off balance from the long cleanup and the sundown traffic jam.
 
Dudedog, walkalong, you guys may be on to something. I had no problem with the accurate #9 last time. So today it could have been the Unique, low charge and hard bullet.
 
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