Questions About Reloading without Reliable Load Data...

flyingclutch said:
This is comedy gold right here.



I can understand one company avoiding it, but Hornady doesn't seem to have it listed in their guide either. At this point, I'm just looking to get something loaded for my 30-30 that will hopefully (1) make a loud noise and (2) exit the barrel. I know remarkably little about powder burn rates, and the fact that a cast bullet and a jacketed one can have different powder preferences is still something I'm trying to wrap my head around.



Actually, if memory serves, I think I was using IMR 3031 for my .308 Win loads... I wonder if I have any left. But mostly, the 45-70 and 30-30 stuff I'm loading is for plinking and building a stock of usable ammo, not particularly low-recoil loads. All my hunting ammo is factory, though with the shortages and prices for specialty ammo in CA (everywhere, but mostly here, where ammo background checks drive people to buy in bulk immediately upon seeing stock) I may consider trying to work up some lead-free loads for hunting eventually.
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If you can find - online or in stores - any of the powders in the Sierra list I posted, you should be good. One of the things I like about the Sierra tables is they list powders from fastest to slowest. I recommend downloading the free version for your Sierra bullets - just understand only using single-source tests for data is limiting. Sierra’s data is intended only for their bullets. Same with Hornady and Speer.
 
Sierra does publish load data and they have an app. That doesn’t mean you can’t use other published load data with different powders. @AJC1 posted IMR data for your powder, I would think that’s a max charge as there’s only one listed.
There are powder burn rate charts out there, they are relative to each other so don’t try to deduce anything other than that. 30-30 can tolerate a lot of different powders so whatever you have or can get can probably be used to “go bang” and have holes on target.
I don’t load for the .500, but I do for its little cousin, the .460. Personally I wouldn’t try to use a plated bullet in that caliber, given its intensity. I run the XTP Mag bullets, and because of the recoil I do use a heavy roll crimp to prevent movement. Yes yes yes, for the most part neck tension is what typically prevents bullet movement, but in my .460 I need a heavy roll crimp. There is a relationship between neck tension or crimp on powder combustion, and ultimately pressure but most of us have no way of measuring pressure. To my knowledge, there’s no “crimp” metric on published load data, so that should tell you something. Depending on the cartridge, seating depth and/or bullet jump will have a larger affect on pressure.
Stay with published data and you’ll be fine.
 
lordpaxman said:
Sierra does publish load data and they have an app. That doesn’t mean you can’t use other published load data with different powders. @AJC1 posted IMR data for your powder, I would think that’s a max charge as there’s only one listed.
There are powder burn rate charts out there, they are relative to each other so don’t try to deduce anything other than that. 30-30 can tolerate a lot of different powders so whatever you have or can get can probably be used to “go bang” and have holes on target.
I don’t load for the .500, but I do for its little cousin, the .460. Personally I wouldn’t try to use a plated bullet in that caliber, given its intensity. I run the XTP Mag bullets, and because of the recoil I do use a heavy roll crimp to prevent movement. Yes yes yes, for the most part neck tension is what typically prevents bullet movement, but in my .460 I need a heavy roll crimp. There is a relationship between neck tension or crimp on powder combustion, and ultimately pressure but most of us have no way of measuring pressure. To my knowledge, there’s no “crimp” metric on published load data, so that should tell you something. Depending on the cartridge, seating depth and/or bullet jump will have a larger affect on pressure.
Stay with published data and you’ll be fine.
Click to expand...
Personally, I think the IMR data using Speer and Remington bullets is close enough to find a starting load if you’re right about that being maximum load and the start load is about 90% of that. I also think that is the correct assumption, and the one I would make if it was me looking for data. The OP is looking for specific data - which is absolutely correct! - or at least close and I hope he’s got a good answer now. It’s always a guessing game when the manufacturers don’t/won’t explain their methodology thoroughly. Sometimes it’s buried in a manual and sometimes not.
 
flyingclutch said:
This is comedy gold right here.



I can understand one company avoiding it, but Hornady doesn't seem to have it listed in their guide either. At this point, I'm just looking to get something loaded for my 30-30 that will hopefully (1) make a loud noise and (2) exit the barrel. I know remarkably little about powder burn rates, and the fact that a cast bullet and a jacketed one can have different powder preferences is still something I'm trying to wrap my head around.



Actually, if memory serves, I think I was using IMR 3031 for my .308 Win loads... I wonder if I have any left. But mostly, the 45-70 and 30-30 stuff I'm loading is for plinking and building a stock of usable ammo, not particularly low-recoil loads. All my hunting ammo is factory, though with the shortages and prices for specialty ammo in CA (everywhere, but mostly here, where ammo background checks drive people to buy in bulk immediately upon seeing stock) I may consider trying to work up some lead-free loads for hunting eventually.
Click to expand...


If your trying to build lead free, midway had factory seconds of the 140 monoflex, at a slightly less painful price. In this section of midway it's picture shopping because they don't list the name.....
 
flyingclutch said:
Hello folks,

Long time listener, first-time caller.

This is my first post here. I'm 26, a law student, and dabble in all sorts of different disciplines in terms of the practice of using and owning firearms (which the state of California graciously allows me to do.) I have been reloading for some time for .45-70, .308, .45 ACP, and .223 Remington. I hope I am not asking something that has already been answered, but I am looking for caliber/bullet weight specific answers, if at all possible.

As a caveat: I am an EXTREMELY cautious reloader and tend towards the lowest of all loads when I am given the opportunity, and am tentative to load anything without reliable data.

Here are my questions:

1. I received a box of some vintage .30-30 projectiles (Sierra 120 gr. Pro-Hunter). Sierra does not publish load data, and I have checked Hodgdon, several years of Lyman manuals, and Hornady's App, and I cannot even find data for a 120 gr. .30-30 round at all.

How does one go about finding a relatively safe load? I have a stock of IMR4198 and would prefer to find something to allow me to use that. Lyman had load data for a 110gr and a 125gr loading which used this powder, and the starting loads were about a grain and a half different if I recall.

2. The same question as above, however, it's for a Berry's Superior 350 grain round nose in .500" for a .500 S&W Magnum. (I am sure this has been answered somewhere here.) I know Berry says to use the data for an FMJ or hard cast in the same weight, but the only data I can seem to find that's similar is for the Hornady XTP in 350 gr., and that's obviously a hollow-point round. Would that work?

3. How big of a difference does a crimp make in terms of pressure output? I am very light on all of my crimping dies, as I have nearly paranoid concerns pertaining to overpressuring my guns. Typically, I will only increase my loads past the starting load where I am loading for my Marlin 1895 in 45-70, and will do so according to Hornady's specs, using Hornady projectiles.


Thank anyone in advance for the help, or even for reading my questions. I have been missing my 30-30 severely for a couple of years now, and finally have the tooling and parts to load for it, so I am placing a higher level of priority on that question.


EDIT: The Sierra bullets for the 30-30 are 125 gr. Pro-Hunter rounds, not 120 as I had believed prior.
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Welcome to the addictive world of handloading! Don't ever worry about asking questions that have already been asked, just ASK.

I use Load Data.com religiously and have for years; I never let my subscription lapse. IMHO it is the best and most comprehensive source for reloading data and articles on the subject that can be found in one place. Data therein comes from many, many sources including powder manufacturers, bullet manufacturers, reloading manuals and the pages of Handloader, Rifle and Black Powder Cartridge magazines. I have had a subscription now for around 10 years. So, I logged into my account, searched "30-30", 125 gr. bullets and IMR-4198 and found 5 loads. Removing the IMR-4198 criteria netted over 150 loads for that weight projectile in the 30-30. For your 500 S&W and 350 gr. bullets, there were over 200 loads. For your 45-70 and IMR-4198, which happens to be a very versatile powder in the 45-70, there were almost 280 loads for all weights of bullets. Also, if you really enjoy handloading, you might consider a subscription to Handloader magazine (which in your soon-to-be professional world would be the equivalent to something like Attorney at Law magazine) which goes far beyond and in greater depth on the particulars of handloading than do loading manuals.

I've never crimped bullets in bottle-neck rifle cartridges such as the .223, it's just not necessary in my expereince. I always crimp straight-wall handgun and rifle cartridges and the only results I've ever seen are more consistent velocities, not higher pressure. Somewhere around here I have an old copy of Handloader in which there is an article where the author does a fairly comprehensive test, with chronograph results, of a handgun cartridge with different powders, to which he applied varying degrees of crimp. The main thing I remember from the article is that with slower burning powders, the more crimp that was applied, the more consistent velocities (i.e.- lower extreme velocity spreads) became. I load for the 45-70 (Marlin 1895 & Ruger #1) and have since I was a teenager and have always applied a heavy crimp. I think it's a foregone conclusion that with any cartridge that is chambered in tube-fed lever action rifle, a crimp should always be applied to keep bullets from telescoping back in the case, and undoubtedly is done so during load development.

Like motorists, stock brokers and cheating spouses, some handloaders are more cautious than others, but as long as you follow established load data and use common sense, you're not going to destroy your firearms.

Enjoy your hobby!

35W
 
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For the 350 berrys without cannelure
I am sure someone else loaded those for the 500 mag, but I wouldn’t. You will need the cannelure to crimp, especially if using a well suited powder
 
I have loaded quite a few plated bullets into the .500 with good results.

I generally recommend against using jacketed data with plated bullets. There are instances where it can work, but many instances where it will not. I believe this is one of the latter, for two reasons.

First, Berry's wants those bullets kept to 1250 FPS, unless you have some which have "thick plating". Even then you are still limited to 1500 FPS, and jacketed bullet loads can easily exceed those velocities. Secondly, if you do have bullets without cannelures, you may have a tough time keeping them in the cases under full recoil.

I personally use mild to midrange cast bullet data with plated bullets in the .500 Magnum. My most-used load is with Unique. Ten to twelve grains earns about 850 to 1000 FPS, which makes for an amusing and useful load. Now that Unique has become hard to find, I am playing around with other powders. AA 5744 is promising, but I have not yet covered enough ground with it to be comfortable giving detailed recommendations.
 
.45Coltguy said:
Question for OP, and perhaps I missed it, but, do you have any other powders on hand?
As to same powder for 30-30 and 45-70, Rel#7 will work.
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I'll check what I have in stock but I think I have Titegroup, Ramshot Tac, [EDIT: IMR 4064], and IMR 4198. I've been away from the bench a while because of school, so it's hard to remember. The only reason I've gotten back on the train is that I found a gentleman selling some NOS CCI 200's, and the fact that I can't afford to run my new-to-me .500 without reloading. Will check out Reloader 7.

35 Whelen said:
Welcome to the addictive world of handloading! Don't ever worry about asking questions that have already been asked, just ASK.

I use Load Data.com religiously and have for years; I never let my subscription lapse. IMHO it is the best and most comprehensive source for reloading data and articles on the subject that can be found in one place. Data therein comes from many, many sources including powder manufacturers, bullet manufacturers, reloading manuals and the pages of Handloader, Rifle and Black Powder Cartridge magazines. I have had a subscription now for around 10 years. So, I logged into my account, searched "30-30", 125 gr. bullets and IMR-4198 and found 5 loads. Removing the IMR-4198 criteria netted over 150 loads for that weight projectile in the 30-30. For your 500 S&W and 350 gr. bullets, there were over 200 loads. For your 45-70 and IMR-4198, which happens to be a very versatile powder in the 45-70, there were almost 280 loads for all weights of bullets. Also, if you really enjoy handloading, you might consider a subscription to Handloader magazine (which in your soon-to-be professional world would be the equivalent to something like Attorney at Law magazine) which goes far beyond and in greater depth on the particulars of handloading than do loading manuals.

I've never crimped bullets in bottle-neck rifle cartridges such as the .223, it's just not necessary in my expereince. I always crimp straight-wall handgun and rifle cartridges and the only results I've ever seen are more consistent velocities, not higher pressure. Somewhere around here I have an old copy of Handloader in which there is an article where the author does a fairly comprehensive test, with chronograph results, of a handgun cartridge with different powders, to which he applied varying degrees of crimp. The main thing I remember from the article is that with slower burning powders, the more crimp that was applied, the more consistent velocities (i.e.- lower extreme velocity spreads) became. I load for the 45-70 (Marlin 1895 & Ruger #1) and have since I was a teenager and have always applied a heavy crimp. I think it's a foregone conclusion that with any cartridge that is chambered in tube-fed lever action rifle, a crimp should always be applied to keep bullets from telescoping back in the case, and undoubtedly is done so during load development.

Like motorists, stock brokers and cheating spouses, some handloaders are more cautious than others, but as long as you follow established load data and use common sense, you're not going to destroy your firearms.

Enjoy your hobby!

35W
Click to expand...

I will check out the LoadData.com situation, as it would be nicer to have a compilation of sources, as opposed to having to scour around. My understanding was that tube-fed weapons and straight-wall cartridges should be crimped, as well as those rounds which have stout recoil. Even still, I have applied light crimps to .223 and .308 loads, if only out of paranoia.

My 30-30 dies are from RCBS and are a 2-die set, which apparently have a sort of crimper built into the bullet seating die... I'm not sure how I feel about it, but I'd have to imagine millions of lever actions have fired rounds pressed through those RCBS dies. I'm curious to see how the crimp looks... Thanks for the reply!

.38 Special said:
I have loaded quite a few plated bullets into the .500 with good results.

I generally recommend against using jacketed data with plated bullets. There are instances where it can work, but many instances where it will not. I believe this is one of the latter, for two reasons.

First, Berry's wants those bullets kept to 1250 FPS, unless you have some which have "thick plating". Even then you are still limited to 1500 FPS, and jacketed bullet loads can easily exceed those velocities. Secondly, if you do have bullets without cannelures, you may have a tough time keeping them in the cases under full recoil.

I personally use mild to midrange cast bullet data with plated bullets in the .500 Magnum. My most-used load is with Unique. Ten to twelve grains earns about 850 to 1000 FPS, which makes for an amusing and useful load. Now that Unique has become hard to find, I am playing around with other powders. AA 5744 is promising, but I have not yet covered enough ground with it to be comfortable giving detailed recommendations.
Click to expand...

According to Berry's website, actually, they have a 2,000 fps limit on their .500" bullets, which strikes me as remarkable. I will have to re-check and see if they do have slight cannelures that I missed. The 300 grain version does not, but the 350's have a slight one, from what I can see on their website.
 
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flyingclutch said:
According to Berry's website, actually, they have a 2,000 fps limit on their .500" bullets, which strikes me as remarkable. I will have to re-check and see if they do have slight cannelures that I missed. The 300 grain version does not, but the 350's have a slight one, from what I can see on their website.
Click to expand...

I see that you are correct - thank you for pointing it out - and I too am surprised by it. I wonder what they do differently with this diameter that they cannot or will not do with their others.
 
flyingclutch said:
My 30-30 dies are from RCBS and are a 2-die set, which apparently have a sort of crimper built into the bullet seating die... I'm not sure how I feel about it, but I'd have to imagine millions of lever actions have fired rounds pressed through those RCBS dies. I'm curious to see how the crimp looks... Thanks for the reply!
Click to expand...

There is, by design, a crimper built into your RCBS seating die. Tapered cases such as the 30-30 have a tendency to stretch more than their straighter counterparts, so you'll have to keep the cases trimmed, and trimmed the same length. If you don't, when you crimp the bullet one case it may have a perfect crimp, then a case that's too short will have little to no crimp and one that's too long will buckle. Ask me how I know!

35W
 
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The powder I was using for .308 was not IMR 3031, it was IMR 4064, and I still have 3/4 of a pound. Works for me!
 
on the sierra Pro-Hunter 125 Grain - I loaded IMR4064 according to Lyman's 50th edition into 30-30 cases, super fun target shooter. loaded for varmint shooting (we have armadillos and opossums at night 'round here). Light round for a 30-30 with good grouping.
 
One powder I personally would recommend is H4895. It is VERY versatile and can be used for both standard pressure loads as well as reduced loads in a BUNCH of calibers. The Hodgdon site has the instructions listed in PDF format in the Resources tab under Reference Data for reducing it, and plenty of loads in the Loading Guide.

Over the years I have used it for many different types of loads but especially for lower recoil loads for my daughter and grandsons to use for hunting purposes when they were young. Best part of it is you can start with a mild reduced load and work up into a standard pressure load with the same powder.
 
In looking through the Sierra catalog I see the 125 grain Pro Hunter is a pointed bullet which should not be used in a tubular magazine. You mention the LEVERevolution (with plastic points) which makes them safe to rest against the primer of the cartridge in front of it. My son found they were not accurate out of his Marlin 336. That does not mean they will be inaccurate out of your rifle. Mkmoy's suggestion of flat nose bullets is a good one. The bullet that GeoDudeFlorida pictures of the 125-grain bullet is a flat nose as well. Historically, Remington, Winchester and Federal factory .30-30 cartridges were loaded with soft point bullets for safety reasons. Lastly, I would not worry about burn rates at this point. You have been given several loads out of reliable reloading manuals using different kinds of powder. If you are lucky, you might have one or two of the powders listed on hand and won't have to buy new powder to experiment with and find out what loads are most accurate in your rifle.
 
SunnySlopes said:
Buy two guns exactly alike. Gun #1 is the test gun. Work up loads in increments. Keep increasing the charge until the gun blows up. Back off 10% and that's your pet load.

At least, that's how I'm told Elmer Keith did it.
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Imediate disassembly is bad but reduction of 10% will cause metal fatigue leading to rapid disassembly in a few months to a few years depending on use. Not a sound method. Poor Keith did not have the tools for modeling that we do, nor did the engineers.... pushing new limits back then was equal parts bravery and stupidity. There are broken planes and parts of test pilots all over the California desert as proof.
 
AJC1 said:
Imediate disassembly is bad but reduction of 10% will cause metal fatigue leading to rapid disassembly in a few months to a few years depending on use. Not a sound method. Poor Keith did not have the tools for modeling that we do, nor did the engineers.... pushing new limits back then was equal parts bravery and stupidity. There are broken planes and parts of test pilots all over the California desert as proof.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, people are less brave and more stupid now.
 
SunnySlopes said:
Buy two guns exactly alike. Gun #1 is the test gun. Work up loads in increments. Keep increasing the charge until the gun blows up. Back off 10% and that's your pet load.

At least, that's how I'm told Elmer Keith did it.
Click to expand...

You were told wrong. I'd suggest you read Keith's book SIXGUNS. It's a REALLY good read. There are a lot of photos of blown up revolvers therein, none of which are his. I think many, many people thumb through that book, look at the pictures without reading it and just assume he destroyed all those firearms.

AJC1 said:
Imediate disassembly is bad but reduction of 10% will cause metal fatigue leading to rapid disassembly in a few months to a few years depending on use. Not a sound method. Poor Keith did not have the tools for modeling that we do, nor did the engineers.... pushing new limits back then was equal parts bravery and stupidity. There are broken planes and parts of test pilots all over the California desert as proof.
Click to expand...

Elmer Keith was a pioneer in the field of reloading and firearms and did things, both in the world of firearms, hunting and in life in general, that the vast majority of men today simply don't have the cojones to do. That's why I sort of cringe when people make fun of him. If you want to see what MEN were like 100 years ago, read his books.

See above.

35W
 
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