Quiet guns, sans suppressors?
- Thread starter yhtomit
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I've seen loadings for 32-20 that were listed as 'very quiet' and 'nearly silent, check barrel before next shot!'
I'll see if I can google them up
something similar in 38 special
My requirement was to develop one load which I could stock in quantity for use in any .38 Special revolver or "Cowboy Rifle." In my testing with current production Alliant Bullseye power, the lowest charge with the Remington, factory-swged, soft lead 158-gr. semi-wadcutter bullet which would exit the barrel every time (100 rounds, 50 each in rifle and revolver) was 1.2 grains of Bullseye, but only when used with a 3mm diameter enlarged flash hole.
This is about as large as you can go in a case which uses the small size (.175" / 4.45mm) primer. This charge didn't always exist when using a the unmodified 0.078"-0.082" (1.98-2.08mm) flash hole, 2 bullets out of 50 rounds fired in the 18" Marlin carbine lodged within 3" of the muzzle.
The load was "plinking accurate in the basement at 25 feet, but at 50 yards in the Marlin groups strung vertically over a foot! NOT acceptable! Velocity averaged 300 f .p .s . in the 6" Ruger Security Six and 480 fps in the 18" Marlin, but velocity standard Sd was over 100, which set off alarm bells! Had I taken the velocities first I would have quit sooner... Just plain lucky I guess!
All test loads used the Lee Factory Crimp die to hold bullets securely in the case against telescoping from compression of the tubular magazine spring in the Marlin 1894 carbine. I have found that this also improves velocity uniformity, as it seems to prevent the primer blast from dislodging the bullet before powder ignition in light loads. Of course, the powder must be suitable. I have limited myself to Alliant Bullseye so far, because I have it on hand and it would appear satisfactory.
A charge of 2 grains of Bullseye very satisfactory, but much louder (500 f.p.s. in the revolver ) . Point of impact was 6" low at 25 yards, producing a loose 4" group with noticeable projectile yaw from the 18-3/4" twist . Velocities were more uniform and entirely acceptable. Noise-wise in the revolver it was more quiet than a factory-loaded target 148-gr. wadcutter.
In the 18" Marlin it was fairly quiet, producing a satisfying "thunk" rather than a crack, rather like firing standard velocity .22 LR match ammunitionfrom a short-barreled sporting rifle. Not, however, like the "Cat's Sneeze" equivalent of Eley Tenex fired from a long barreled target rifle. The velocityaveraged about 700 f.p.s., point of impact was useful for plainking with iron sights at 25-50 yards plinking without changing the sights from my regular carbine zero for 158-gr. factory .357 Magnum softpoints at 100 yards. I got 2" round groups at 25 yards, larger than I expect with the best loads, but reasonable.
As the powder charge was increased above 2 grains velocities became more uniform and accuracy improved. Using Alliant Bullseye of current manufacture it takes 3.8 grains with the Remington 158-gr. lead SWC to approximate the velocity of factory standard velocity lead-bullet .38 Special loads averaging 800 +/- 20 f.p.s. in a 6" revolver and 950 +/- 20 in the Marlin.
Normal extreme spread of these loads with iron sights is "one inch per ten" (yards) in a handgun and "one inch per 25" in the Marlin, out to 100 yards. I used Norma 158-gr. lead RN factory ammunition as a benchmark. It is repeatable at these velocity ranges and gives 1.5" ten-shot groups at 25 yards from the 6" Ruger Security Six revolver and approximately the same at 50 yards from the Marlin carbine.
At longer ranges I can reliably keep 10 out of 12 shots on a 12" steel gong at 100 yards from the 6" Ruger revolver and expoect the same when plinking at 200 yards with my Marlin Cowboy Carbine. I do not change the sights, but use "Tennessee elevation" (centering the "ghost image " of the gong in my other eye between bottom of front sight bead and the sight dovetail base behind the slimmed portion of the front sight blade).
I didn't load any test increments between 1.2 grains and 2 grains of Bullseye. I need to do that, will do so and report. The 2 grain loads I tested here had unmodified, standard flash holes. My next step is to load samples at 1.5, 1.7 and 2.0 grains, with enlarged flash holes and see how they do.
I'll see if I can google them up
something similar in 38 special
My requirement was to develop one load which I could stock in quantity for use in any .38 Special revolver or "Cowboy Rifle." In my testing with current production Alliant Bullseye power, the lowest charge with the Remington, factory-swged, soft lead 158-gr. semi-wadcutter bullet which would exit the barrel every time (100 rounds, 50 each in rifle and revolver) was 1.2 grains of Bullseye, but only when used with a 3mm diameter enlarged flash hole.
This is about as large as you can go in a case which uses the small size (.175" / 4.45mm) primer. This charge didn't always exist when using a the unmodified 0.078"-0.082" (1.98-2.08mm) flash hole, 2 bullets out of 50 rounds fired in the 18" Marlin carbine lodged within 3" of the muzzle.
The load was "plinking accurate in the basement at 25 feet, but at 50 yards in the Marlin groups strung vertically over a foot! NOT acceptable! Velocity averaged 300 f .p .s . in the 6" Ruger Security Six and 480 fps in the 18" Marlin, but velocity standard Sd was over 100, which set off alarm bells! Had I taken the velocities first I would have quit sooner... Just plain lucky I guess!
All test loads used the Lee Factory Crimp die to hold bullets securely in the case against telescoping from compression of the tubular magazine spring in the Marlin 1894 carbine. I have found that this also improves velocity uniformity, as it seems to prevent the primer blast from dislodging the bullet before powder ignition in light loads. Of course, the powder must be suitable. I have limited myself to Alliant Bullseye so far, because I have it on hand and it would appear satisfactory.
A charge of 2 grains of Bullseye very satisfactory, but much louder (500 f.p.s. in the revolver ) . Point of impact was 6" low at 25 yards, producing a loose 4" group with noticeable projectile yaw from the 18-3/4" twist . Velocities were more uniform and entirely acceptable. Noise-wise in the revolver it was more quiet than a factory-loaded target 148-gr. wadcutter.
In the 18" Marlin it was fairly quiet, producing a satisfying "thunk" rather than a crack, rather like firing standard velocity .22 LR match ammunitionfrom a short-barreled sporting rifle. Not, however, like the "Cat's Sneeze" equivalent of Eley Tenex fired from a long barreled target rifle. The velocityaveraged about 700 f.p.s., point of impact was useful for plainking with iron sights at 25-50 yards plinking without changing the sights from my regular carbine zero for 158-gr. factory .357 Magnum softpoints at 100 yards. I got 2" round groups at 25 yards, larger than I expect with the best loads, but reasonable.
As the powder charge was increased above 2 grains velocities became more uniform and accuracy improved. Using Alliant Bullseye of current manufacture it takes 3.8 grains with the Remington 158-gr. lead SWC to approximate the velocity of factory standard velocity lead-bullet .38 Special loads averaging 800 +/- 20 f.p.s. in a 6" revolver and 950 +/- 20 in the Marlin.
Normal extreme spread of these loads with iron sights is "one inch per ten" (yards) in a handgun and "one inch per 25" in the Marlin, out to 100 yards. I used Norma 158-gr. lead RN factory ammunition as a benchmark. It is repeatable at these velocity ranges and gives 1.5" ten-shot groups at 25 yards from the 6" Ruger Security Six revolver and approximately the same at 50 yards from the Marlin carbine.
At longer ranges I can reliably keep 10 out of 12 shots on a 12" steel gong at 100 yards from the 6" Ruger revolver and expoect the same when plinking at 200 yards with my Marlin Cowboy Carbine. I do not change the sights, but use "Tennessee elevation" (centering the "ghost image " of the gong in my other eye between bottom of front sight bead and the sight dovetail base behind the slimmed portion of the front sight blade).
I didn't load any test increments between 1.2 grains and 2 grains of Bullseye. I need to do that, will do so and report. The 2 grain loads I tested here had unmodified, standard flash holes. My next step is to load samples at 1.5, 1.7 and 2.0 grains, with enlarged flash holes and see how they do.
Some other stuff to research:
Chamber Adapters: http://www.eabco.com/sale8.html
http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm
Hammond Game Getter: http://www3.telus.net/gamegetter/
Lots of good stuff here: http://guns.connect.fi/gow/ed.html
There used to be a number of very good articles on "Silent Loads" written by Paco Kelly on Sixgunner.com but I have no idea if they are still available.
I have tried everything listed above many times. Then, I just bought a number of real suppressors.
Chamber Adapters: http://www.eabco.com/sale8.html
http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm
Hammond Game Getter: http://www3.telus.net/gamegetter/
Lots of good stuff here: http://guns.connect.fi/gow/ed.html
There used to be a number of very good articles on "Silent Loads" written by Paco Kelly on Sixgunner.com but I have no idea if they are still available.
I have tried everything listed above many times. Then, I just bought a number of real suppressors.
.22LR subsonic rounds through my old winchester semi-auto sound like a childs cap gun.
Another thought...pellet gun. My son and I shot about 60 pellets at targets out back last night. I use old license plates as targets so they make a nice sound when you hit them. Cheap, quiet, fun, can shoot inside the city limits.
Another thought...pellet gun. My son and I shot about 60 pellets at targets out back last night. I use old license plates as targets so they make a nice sound when you hit them. Cheap, quiet, fun, can shoot inside the city limits.
Nail Shooter
Member
My old Mossberg bolt 22 (bbl length is at least 26" I think) is quieter w/ CCI CB's than my .177 RWS pellet rifle.
NS
NS
yhtomit
Member
Oops! -- what do you mean by counterboring a .22?
"For .22 rifles, you can counterbore a 22"-24" barrel to 17". Bore to .250" or larger. Scarey quiet and perfectly legal."
Pardon my ignorance, but would you mind explaining that a bit more?
a) could you explain what counterboring is?
b) same question, I guess, but -- by what means does it make things quieter?
Thanks for any insight!
timothy
"For .22 rifles, you can counterbore a 22"-24" barrel to 17". Bore to .250" or larger. Scarey quiet and perfectly legal."
Pardon my ignorance, but would you mind explaining that a bit more?
a) could you explain what counterboring is?
b) same question, I guess, but -- by what means does it make things quieter?
Thanks for any insight!
timothy
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
If you have a 22" barrel, he's saying get a .250" diameter reamer and ream out the barrel from the muzzle end to .250" diameter for 5 inches, so you end up with 17" of .22 caliber barrel and 5 inches of .250" diameter expansion area. That allows the gas to expand, slow, and cool some before exiting the muzzle.
TallPine
Member
I guess it all depends on what one means by "quiet" ...
A normal .22 out of a rifle isn't too bad, but it still has a supersonic crack
A unmodified lever action loaded with .38 specials seems like a nifty combination for shooting porcupines or other vermin - not silent but it appears that the sound probably wouldn't be recognized as a gunshot beyond my 40 acres. Not that it matters - I can shoot whatever I want here - but it would be handy for late night or early morning shooting.
A normal .22 out of a rifle isn't too bad, but it still has a supersonic crack
A unmodified lever action loaded with .38 specials seems like a nifty combination for shooting porcupines or other vermin - not silent but it appears that the sound probably wouldn't be recognized as a gunshot beyond my 40 acres. Not that it matters - I can shoot whatever I want here - but it would be handy for late night or early morning shooting.
NukemJim, true, but I've heard many misconceptions from shooters in free states that think it is some sort of impossible task. I feel bad for people in non-NFA states, but for the rest of us, it isn't as hard to get as some people seem to believe.
Just as a point of fact (sort of off-topic): I own a few decent pellet rifles that I shoot in the house and yard. Beeman R1, RWS 45, and a steroid Benjamn/Sheridan. I also have one of those Russian pistols IZH45 ? and a Beeman P1 pistol. All of them are SIGNIFICANTLY louder than my suppressed Glock 34, let alone my suppressed .22s. This pump-up Benjamn is as loud as a regular .22, or so it's seems when you fire it in the house. I sometimes shoot my suppressed Ruger Mk.II in the house and all I hear is a sharp clang when the bullet hits the bullet trap.
jjohnson
Member
22 Quiet Rifles, Anyone?
Well............... there's a bunch of threads currently running in the ammo forum found in www.rimfirecentral.com if you're okay with doing the .22 gig. Lots of discussions on what ammo's best, barrel length, what's subsonic versus supersonic, you name it, they're discussing it there. You can extrapolate a lot - I mean, velocity and mass, long versus short barrels, all stuff in excruciating detail. If quiet shooting is your thing, it's a place to get some new ideas. And you might just convince yourself you need ONE more firearm in the battery.
Well............... there's a bunch of threads currently running in the ammo forum found in www.rimfirecentral.com if you're okay with doing the .22 gig. Lots of discussions on what ammo's best, barrel length, what's subsonic versus supersonic, you name it, they're discussing it there. You can extrapolate a lot - I mean, velocity and mass, long versus short barrels, all stuff in excruciating detail. If quiet shooting is your thing, it's a place to get some new ideas. And you might just convince yourself you need ONE more firearm in the battery.
Perfect explanation! Use standard velocity ammo.
I have used a long shank drill bit in my Bridgeport mill to counterbore many rifles. Usually it is done to fix a barrel that is worn at the muzzle, from improper cleaning. Normal depth of my counterbores is about 2".
I was boring out the barrel on an old .22, to install a liner. I stopped at 16" and cleaned the barrel. I took it out and shot a few shots and it was extremely quiet.
I have used a long shank drill bit in my Bridgeport mill to counterbore many rifles. Usually it is done to fix a barrel that is worn at the muzzle, from improper cleaning. Normal depth of my counterbores is about 2".
I was boring out the barrel on an old .22, to install a liner. I stopped at 16" and cleaned the barrel. I took it out and shot a few shots and it was extremely quiet.
Even if I live in a free state(i.e. Texas) Why should I have to pay an extra $200 and fill out all kinds of paperwork and then wait a few months for permission?
Considering all the crap that goes on about how noisly gun ranges are, I should be able to just walk in and buy a suppressor.
-Bill
WHM1974
Keep beating that drum.
See where it gets you.
Good Luck
Now onto something productive.
I bought this gun yesterday: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=214116
I decided I had to try it in the house using CB caps. It is very quiet. Far quieter (is that a word ?) than my air rifles. A friend has the same rifle and I was amazed at how quiet his was. Of course there is nothing special about it. Just a .22LR with a fairly long, heavy barrel.
Bottom line, it is a quiet gun sans suppressor.
Keep beating that drum.
See where it gets you.
Good Luck
Now onto something productive.
I bought this gun yesterday: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=214116
I decided I had to try it in the house using CB caps. It is very quiet. Far quieter (is that a word ?) than my air rifles. A friend has the same rifle and I was amazed at how quiet his was. Of course there is nothing special about it. Just a .22LR with a fairly long, heavy barrel.
Bottom line, it is a quiet gun sans suppressor.
Nathan Williams
member
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My Glock 30 is among the loudest freakin guns I own. I dont know why you would bother with trying to quiet a 10/22, unless you are planning some clandestine activities Do you really hate the neighbors cat that much? I shoot my little ruger all day with no plugs or muffs dont bother me a bit.
Do you really hate the neighbors cat that much? I shoot my little ruger all day with no plugs or muffs dont bother me a bit.I don't know.
It is interesting that I never wondered what they velocity of a CB cap is.
The CB cap is definitely shooting a lot heavier bullet.
It doesn't matter for my needs. I am shooting them into a bullet trap at the end of the hallway. If I was actually trying to kill something I would use something bigger than either one of them: with a suppressor.
It is interesting that I never wondered what they velocity of a CB cap is.
The CB cap is definitely shooting a lot heavier bullet.
It doesn't matter for my needs. I am shooting them into a bullet trap at the end of the hallway. If I was actually trying to kill something I would use something bigger than either one of them: with a suppressor.
Bill, I agree. I should be able to buy suppresors with no fees or paperwork, and I should be able to carry a gun wherever I want without a permit, and I shouldn't have to fill out a 4473 to buy a gun, and I shouldn't have to pay income taxes, and I should be able to have multiple wives, while smoking pot, and barbequing endangered pandas.
In the meantime, if you want a suppresor, you have to play the game. However it isn't as hard as people on the internet make it out to be.
In the meantime, if you want a suppresor, you have to play the game. However it isn't as hard as people on the internet make it out to be.
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