Random Iraqi Civilians killed by Contractors?

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considering that contractors have different duties and missions to perform, maybe they were on an executive protect, and had orders to open fire on any vehicle that came too close?

watch the video again, its a collage of several different videos, that doesnt provide us with any idea at all what the scenarios really were.

no one can immediately make the judgment call that contractors are going around killing innocent civilians just for gits and shiggles.
 
If that's what it purports to be, it infuriates me that we are paying for that. In fact, it infuriates me that we are paying for armed 'contractors', devoid of any military discipline or objective whatsoever. :fire:
 
whats this 'we paying...' bit about? private contractors are not being paid from our taxes, are they?
Oh yeah, you're right. They're paid from charitable donations from the American people, just like body armor for troops and Rush 24/7 subscriptions.
 
What I would argue is this: Relying on the maxim that "war is tough and people die" as a justification for what appears to be some fairly heinous activity perpetrated by U.S. hired contractors is intellectual sloth.

Immediately assuming the worst about the US and its allies could also be considered intellectual sloth.
 
GoRon said:
Immediately assuming the worst about the US and its allies could also be considered intellectual sloth.

Do we really have to count scottish mercenaries as our allies now?
 
None of these guys are mecenaries, mercenaries fight wars (as in offensive OPS). They are just highly paid security guards. If nobody threatens their civilian clients or convoys, then they don't engage. They most certainly do have military discipline and training as they are almost all to a man former military. Our tax dollars do pay for it, the civilians building the country need to keep their heads on. It is a lot cheaper than having the military provide security.

Yes, some can get a bit too aggressive enforcing vehicles to stay back....so does the military at times.
 
None of these guys are mecenaries, mercenaries fight wars (as in offensive OPS). They are just highly paid security guards. If nobody threatens their civilian clients or convoys, then they don't engage.
Security guards for who? Who's so rich and important they have to be in the middle of a war zone with hired security guards????????
 
Let's get real. They're Mercs. Mercs fight for money, offense or defense, period. I'm making no judgements on them, but call a spade a spade. Hell, ten years ago, I might be doing the job.
Biker
 
They are security guards for the contractors building the country...not rich people:rolleyes: The contractors are hired by DOD.

They are most certainly not paid to fight. The object of any security work and especially VIP protection is to avoid trouble/fights. Is a mall security guard a "Retail Merc"? The only difference is the threat level. A guard pulling security for a mall in Baghdad would be called a "security contractor" same job though, just higher risk.

I don't mind being called a "merc" personally, it sounds kinda cool...it's just not correct.
 
Maybe we watched different videos, it sure looks like they are fighting to me. Or are you willing to concede that they are just shooting people for fun? They are either mercinaries or murders, have it your way.
 
strambo said:
They are security guards for the contractors building the country...not rich people:rolleyes: The contractors are hired by DOD.

They are most certainly not paid to fight. The object of any security work and especially VIP protection is to avoid trouble/fights. Is a mall security guard a "Retail Merc"? The only difference is the threat level. A guard pulling security for a mall in Baghdad would be called a "security contractor" same job though, just higher risk.

I don't mind being called a "merc" personally, it sounds kinda cool...it's just not correct.
They are paid to provide 'security' which may entail engaging enemy combatants. If you equate a mall ninja with civy security personel in Iraq, we have no basis for debate.
Biker
 
Biker said:
They are paid to provide 'security' which may entail engaging enemy combatants. If you equate a mall ninja with civy security personel in Iraq, we have no basis for debate.
Biker

I think the mall ninja stems from the sheer number of "I-can't-talk-about-where-I've-been-but-I've-done-some-bad-s**t-in-my-day-and-got-paid-plenty" folks running around. AFAIK, real mercs don't really talk about what they do too much, simply because it's not professional.
 
artherd said:
Looks to me like the white van took fire when it accelerated and BROKE the exclusion zone respected by the other drivers.

Sorry, you do that you die.

Also, one would think that innocent drivers would, um, you know, STOP THEIR CARS after taking the first few rounds of machinegun fire The ones that KEEP GOING, yeah, I'd dump a full belt into.



When the insurgents start taping 2" lettered signs to the CHILDREN they are wiring with explosives and sending into our camps, I'll have to remenber to complain the letters aren't big enough either.


...You can't really stop the car once your brain is scattered against your 5 year old child's face in the back with your face planted against the steering wheel. Otherwise, I don't think that car would've hit the corner of the taxi.
 
To point out that a limited number of foreign nationals employed by a private foreign firm providing security for a private international contracting company whose only connection to the US govt. per se is that they were hired under the applicable standing contracting regulations to do a non-military recovery/rebuilding job (but other than that are not under direct US govt. military or civilian control) MAY have fired on what may be Iraqi non-combatants, illegally.

See, it's all Bush's fault. :rolleyes:
 
The mall example was a bad one...I wasn't thinking about the "mall ninja" connotations. What I was trying to point out is that the job title and description are not based on location.

If an executive protection specialist accompanies his executive to NYC he will be concerned with safety (traffic, fire, medical), crime and the clients reputation. Low risk. If the same EP goes to Bogata, Columbia the risks go through the roof including from forces hostile to America. Is he now a mercenary? If the executives' company pursues a construction contract in Iraq and the EP goes is he now a mercenary? He is doing the same job, just in different places with different threat levels.

The definitions of words are very important and shouldn't be changed based on situations or for political reasons. Lets define our terms: (from dictionary.com)

mer·ce·nar·y ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mûrs-nr)
adj.
1. Motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain.
2. Hired for service in a foreign army.

Definition 1 applies to anyone who works solely for $$$. I'm a mercenary right now in the US 'cause my current job is no career and I just need to pay the bills.

Defenition 2 addresses the context in question. Security contractors in Iraq work for civilian security companies. These companies are most often contracted by other civilian companies. In no case is a contractor working for any military, foreign or not.

They are either mercinaries or murders, have it your way.

Wow, lots of logical errors in that statement...where to begin? 1st, the statement implies an "either/or" situation which does not exist. It is easily possible to be both a mercenary and a murderer. It is easily possible to be a soldier and a murderer by not following the ROE/ laws of land warfare.

Next, the statement assumes conclusions from facts not in evidence, namely that someone died and that it was murder. In many, if not most, cases of similar shootings no one is killed. We couldn't know from the video if anyone died. Yes, sometimes Iraqi civilians are killed in these circumsrtances.

Finally, the statement assumes there are only 2 possible answers (merc or murderer). If someone was killed it could be; a. self defence, b. negligent homocide, c. manslaughter or d. murder.

What you can't see in the vid are any actions of the tail gunner. The sign is just the first warning. If a vehicle fails to heed that, the tail gunner will signal the vehicle to back off, often using a bright light, or brightly colored paddle. If this is ignored they will point the weapon at the car to be quickly followed by warning shots in front of the vehicle. You can tell some of those were warning shots in the vid. Finally, if the car is still coming, then you fire to stop the threat. These procedures vary by company and/or military-police unit but are similar and followed/approved by US military, Iraqi gov't and Iraqi police.

Sometimes things happen fast. Sometimes mistakes are made. Friendly fire incidents are common (Military at security, security at other security, military/security at Iraqi police and vice versa) As stated above most incidents don't result in casualties and stop at the warning shot phase.

Bottom line: Security contractors as a whole are not mercenaries by definition. If a contractor is there solely for the $$$, then he would be under def. 1 above, but so would the cashier at Wendy's unless they really like it.:D

The vid does not show enough to judge whether these cases were self defense, reckless endagerment, negligent homicide or murder. To be murder the gunner would have had to decide to kill someone not because they thought they were a threat, but merely because they could.
 
Hrm. I wonder if this thread and this thread are related:
Westhusing's task was to oversee a private security company, Virginia-based USIS, which had contracts worth $79 million to train a corps of Iraqi police to conduct special operations.

In March, Gen. David Petraeus, commanding officer of the Iraqi training mission, praised Westhusing's performance, saying he had exceeded "lofty expectations."

"Thanks much, sir, but we can do much better and will," Westhusing wrote back, according to a copy of the Army investigation of his death that was obtained by The Times.

In April, his mood seemed to have darkened. He worried over delays in training one of the police battalions.

Then, in May, Westhusing received an anonymous four-page letter that contained detailed allegations of wrongdoing by USIS.

The writer accused USIS of deliberately shorting the government on the number of trainers to increase its profit margin. More seriously, the writer detailed two incidents in which USIS contractors allegedly had witnessed or participated in the killing of Iraqis.
A USIS contractor accompanied Iraqi police trainees during the assault on Fallouja last November and later boasted about the number of insurgents he had killed, the letter says. Private security contractors are not allowed to conduct offensive operations.
In a second incident, the letter says, a USIS employee saw Iraqi police trainees kill two innocent Iraqi civilians, then covered it up. A USIS manager "did not want it reported because he thought it would put his contract at risk."
 
1. Contractor vehicles do not have such signs.
2. they are not controlled by either the military or the "iraqi" "government" (if you can call it such...)
3. yes, they have a license to kill without being accountable.
4. they are not mercenaries.
5. they are not contracted to do similar tasks either.
 
1. Contractor vehicles do not have such signs.
2. they are not controlled by either the military or the "iraqi" "government" (if you can call it such...)
3. yes, they have a license to kill without being accountable.
4. they are not mercenaries.
5. they are not contracted to do similar tasks either.

1. High profile convoys often do have those signs, low profile vehicles blend in with traffic/locals so the signs would be stupid and they don't shoot at folks for getting too close.
2. Not directly...theoretically they can be held accountable under Iraqi? (not sure) and/or international law as well as the laws from their parent country. Difficult to do in practice under current conditions.
3. No, but see #2 above.
4. True, thank you.
5. True, if by similar you mean what mercenaries typically do (fight wars in/for foreign militaries.)
 
Sheesh! hard to believe the degree of excitement over "Private contractor".

Halliburton is a prime contractor. Halliburton has sub-contractors. Construction jobs are all over the country. These folks are private contractors. Some of the p.c.s are bodyguards for VIPs, both US and Iraqi. Some of the p.c.s are bodyguards for convoys.

Does anybody think that security is NOT an issue for civilian workers in Iraq? Duh? Is there a problem with hiring help to be bodyguards while doing construction, and delivering construction materials?

You find job descriptions for the reconstruction work in Iraq that's not one iota different from here in the U.S.

I constantly read here at THR about what folks would do in the way of self-defense in a dangerous situation. Is there some problem with guys working in Iraq excercising the same rights? Do they lose the right to self-defense when they leave the U.S.?

When you're trying to stay alive, does it really matter whence cometh your paycheck?

Art
 
Well Art, be reasonable, these are just big corporations and rich guys we're talking about. Obviously they spend hours on hours twisting their collective mustaches and plotting the undoing of poor Priscilla Pureheart and the undermining of all we hold sacred.

See, only the poor are trustworthy, noble, honest and good.

Unless of course they're TOO poor, in which case they are the dangerous criminal underclass. :rolleyes:

If you aren't middle to lower middle class in a private, wage-earning profession or own a small, preferably struggling small business you really should check your forehead for horns.
 
5. they are not contracted to do similar tasks either.

Ah great! Now I'm going to have to look thru all those insurgent video sites until I find the Blackwater security guys sniping at Iraqis.

Private contractors are more of a problem than a benefit. Our soldiers fighting there see security agents doing the same jobs and getting paid 10-20 times as much. It's tough on morale. And their presence has caused US policy makers to move too soon on some issues.

Example: Contractors killed in Fallujah.
Interview with Marine Col. John Toolan, in charge of the Fallujah offensive. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/warriors/
interviews/toolan.html

Retired Marine Col. Thomas X. Hammes: "Blackwater's an extraordinarily professional organization and they were doing exactly what they were tasked to do: protect the principal," he says. "The problem is in protecting the principal they had to be very aggressive, and each time they went out they had to offend locals, forcing them to the side of the road, being overpowering and intimidating, at times running vehicles off the road, making enemies each time they went out. So they were actually getting our contract exactly as we asked them to and at the same time hurting our counterinsurgency effort." Hammes is also critical of the construction of the large comfortable bases with big-screen TVs and multiple flavors of ice cream. "Someone's risking their life to deliver that luxury," he says.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/warriors/interviews/
 
Hammes is also critical of the construction of the large comfortable bases with big-screen TVs and multiple flavors of ice cream. "Someone's risking their life to deliver that luxury," he says.

Well, it takes huge wages and luxury hotel accomodations to keep workers up on the North Slope. (Which costs time and money and puts the transport drivers at risk from one of the harshest environments on earth)

I can only imagine what it takes to get that same pipefitter to work in a place where people are actually trying to kill them. And, last I checked, the Army is relatively short on roughnecks and other drill rig monkeys so I'm not sure who else is going to do it.

Our soldiers fighting there see security agents doing the same jobs and getting paid 10-20 times as much. It's tough on morale.

Also, given that the contractors are private, there'd be screams over American troops guarding private corporation personnel as they (besides helping to rebuild infrastructure, ya know, water and power for the Iraqi people) make that big money. The "US Fruit" sarcastic parallels would fly thick I'm sure.
 
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