Range Report. I need your help. (pics)

[lionking]

I see no reason to say that shooting from a bench is "less than".We are not talking using a sled,but resting it while shouldering it.Yes shooting standing and sitting is important but even on a bench skills of breathing,sight control,trigger squeezing all matter still.How many people out hunting will see a buck at 100yds or 200yds and decide to shoot it standing just to prove they are a great shot in a more manly standing position?I think that most would rest it if possible to make the best shot they can.All that matters is a hit or miss not how you shot it unless you are in a competition with rules.

Try a six o clock hold with front sight focus,slow fire.I think that will improve the hits and maybe get somebody you know who is a good shot and let them try the rifle to see how they do with it.How good do you shoot with other rifles?It may be that you just need to get more use to the AR also.

I use to shoot center hold on targets,per the advice of members here I started using SR1 targets and a six o clock hold on the bulls and it improved my groups,when I do it right,sometimes I am off on concentration and my groups widen.....such is life.

 

[rob_s]

A bench is not a rest, a bench is a crutch.

Again, if shooting just to shoot, then it may be of some use.

"Obviate the human factor"? Huh? When can you ever "obviate the human factor"?

Learn to shoot properly from prone.

 

[ZX10Aviator]

1. get a scope
2. try heavier ammo (60-69 grain)
3. sand bag it so it doesnt move

-- if no change, its just not an accurate rifle.

 

[P-32]

I agree with most of the post so far. I put my nose on the charge handle to gauge cheek weld.

Focus on the front sight, take a breath hold it while sweezing the trigger.

When I shoot High Power, I use the Navy hold for offhand...center bull. I can call my shots better this way. When the rifle breaks and the front post was in the black, should be at least a nine. I get upset when the rifle keeps breaking in the 9 ring. All others is a 6 o' clock hold. Black on black is what we shoot. I use a carbide lamp to blacken my sights. Always, always focus on the front sight. Don't pull the trigger if your looking at the target or if the front sight is not were you want it.

By the way, the set up you have is hard to shoot like a high master. It's hard to get comfortable. I still think your looking over the front sight, not focusing on it like you should be.

Swamp Wolf....I find I can shoot better from prone using a sling than off a bench. Most of the time this is what I do to test a new load from one of my service rifles.

 

[SwampWolf]

A bench is not a rest, a bench is a crutch.

Again, if shooting just to shoot, then it may be of some use.

"Obviate the human factor"? Huh? When can you ever "obviate the human factor"?

Learn to shoot properly from prone.

Well, using that rationale, I guess you could argue that any shooting done from a position other than standing on two feet is using a crutch. Why would one want to shoot from the prone position (rhetorical question here!)? Most would agree that the prone position helps obviate all those factors that beset the human endeavor when shooting-hmmm, sort of like what shooting from the bench does!

As I noted earlier, I'm no stranger to using the traditional offhand, sitting and prone positions, from 100 yards to 600 yards, and with issued iron sights, as is required in Service Rifle competition. But if I'm doing the initial sighting-in of my rifle or if I'm testing loads to determine which are more accurate in my rifle or if I'm trying to ascertain the intrinsic accuracy of my rifle or for a host of other reasons that are germane to me improving some aspect of my marksmanship skills, you better believe I'll be using the bench. It's the best way I know to eliminate as much of the human factor that I can when I'm testing the firearm and not myself.

 

[Float Pilot]

1.
Are you focusing your eye on the front sight? The back small aperture should be out of focus and the target should be out of focus. The front sight blade should be in clear focus.
(See the sight, win the fight)

2.
Try some different ammo just for chuckles and grins. It might make a huge difference.

3.
As mentioned try a different color target so the front sight does not get lost.

4.
With a carbine, or any rifle , you can really get some bum results just by changing your cheeck weld, shoulder pocket fit or how you hold the forestock. Moving your face back and forth while trying to see the target instead of the front sight will do all sorts of weird things to your bullet impact points...

 

[SwampWolf]

Swamp Wolf....I find I can shoot better from prone using a sling than off a bench. Most of the time this is what I do to test a new load from one of my service rifles.

I don't dispute that some may prefer the prone position to bench shooting for the purposes you reference. But I would argue that the reason you shoot from the prone position as opposed to, say, offhand is so that you can eliminate as much shooting error as possible when testing your loads. You are testing the ammunition in that circumstance, not the shooter. And, as lionking aptly noted, just because you are shooting from a bench doesn't mean that you can ignore the basic shooting fundamentals: sight-alignment, trigger squeeze, breath control, etc.

 

[P-32]

SwampWolf, Or do I shoot prone because I've shot 1,000's more rounds slinged up from prone than from the bench?

I've also shot more rounds off hand than from the bench. I can get a fair idea how the ammo shoots if it's on call. But the groups are always big.

 

[Nhsport]

I mostly agree with what has been said.
Service rifle matches are not supposed to be held at 100 yd but there are special reduced targets for folks who have only 100 yd ranges. These targets are about 2 feet square and have a 10" black bull . This is similar to the bull you have now but I would sugest sticking them up over a larger clean light color background to give you better contrast.
I like AR's but the stock triggers are a bit rough. Look around at ar15.com . There are some low cost improvements and some higher cost replacements . just shooting yours will smoth it out some and by shooting a target will teach you how to overcome (learn) the one you have.
As mentioned , don't just plop the gun on your rest,pull it back some into your shoulder, this will keep the sights a bit steadier as you pull the trigger. the roughfer your trigger is the more importaint this step is.
I have never been impressed with rem green box for accuracy , see if you can find some federal xm193 (55gr). Still military ball ammo but seems more consistaint than the Rem for me.
A marine Drill Sgt would kick you in the butt for haveing your head so far back from the site. Nose to the charging handle! What this does is to keep your eye in a consistant location from shot to shot. Most importaint for accuracy. This could be your biggest factor!
I would also suggest a spotting scope. You want to find each shot right after you pull the trigger . this allows you to train yourself in how the sights should look and how the trigger should feel when the trigger breaks (for a good shot)
If you walk foward after 10 shots where 5 are in a good tight group and the other 5 a sprayed around you don't know which were which. With the spotting scope you will look after each shot and go AHH that is what a good shot looks and feels like or oops-I was yanking that trigger a bit and look where it went. It will reinforce the proper skills and discourage the poor skills.


You are really not doing all that bad. you would be surprised how many guys never prove themselves on paper, they toss a tin can out on the backstop and kick it around with a 30 round mag and assume they are hitting it every shot. You kick a 223 into the dirt 6 " under a soda can and it still jumps!

 

[Prion]

Don't be to tough on yourself. I don't think that's bad at all from what I've seen at the range. I'm not a very good shoot and also want to improve, my 50's are good and my 100's kinda fall apart. I've seen guys struggle to get anything on paper at 100. Keep it up, you don't have far to go. A lot of people would be very happy to be shooting as well as you!

 

[SwampWolf]

If you walk foward after 10 shots where 5 are in a good tight group and the other 5 a sprayed around you don't know which were which. With the spotting scope you will look after each shot and go AHH that is what a good shot looks and feels like or oops-I was yanking that trigger a bit and look where it went. It will reinforce the proper skills and discourage the poor skills.

Great explanation! If a person is serious about improving his marksmanship skills and especially if he is just starting out, it is vital that he isolates and evaluates each shot. Bad shooting requires assessment and change; good shooting requires assessment and replication.

 

[lionking]

Cheek hold,that you guys mention that,that is something I never really thought of,I just get into a instinctive comfortable position when shooting.This is something I should check myself on,it may improve my shooting.

 

[Hardtarget]

Swampwolf, (post 18), used almost the same words my dad used when we discussed my shooting. We use the bench to prove what the rifle can do. then we use the positions to prove what we can do with the rifle.

Once you are confident of the rifle...good consistent groups...then adjust your sights to print center of the target. Then you can move away from the bench to work on standing, sitting, and prone.

You'll have so much fun. Don't get discouraged. Keep practicing and keep records so you can look back to check progress.

Mark.

 

[Evenflo76]

I'll say what others have said. Make sure you are focusing on the front sight post and not the target, dry-fire dry-fire dry-fire, and try other brands of ammo.

 

[cinteal]

You might try a large inverted triangle, black on white background. The tip if the triangle would sit on top of the post with the base extending above it.

A black 8.5" X 11" in landscape, cut from the 2 top corners to a single point on the bottom edge. Gives you a single, infinitely minute point of reference.

That's the target . . . shooting better groups . . . rounds downrange.

Take you hand of the magazine well.

 

[gdcpony]

Trigger.
The AR is not known for its trigger. I wish I could tell you how to fix it, but I don't know without being there what you are doing. I do know that 90% of the problems my Marines had on the range was trigger related. They would flinch, punch, ect.
Now, for the rest issue. I use this method, and even with peep sights I manage MOA groups at 100. Make a fist with your off hand and place it under the lowest part of your buttstock. Use it to control the rifle by moving it side to side and squeezing it for elevation. I like it because it is infinitely adjustable and free. I always have a fist handy. LOL

 

[spoon]

You did good.
Not much to start with but that’s the way it is.
It would make a difference if he would have told us this is the first time out or 100th time out to the range.
How many shots are fired at each outing ? Is he taking notes at to how cold it is – does the grouping get better after several mags or does it get worse?
Does the rifle and you do better when its cool , warm , hot, cold??
Did the sun change, clouds change, what about the wind during 50 yard shooting and the 100 yard shooting??
There are no wind flags out to tell.
Is this rifle new or did you pick it up off someone else?
WHEN WAS THE last time you cleaned the rifle?
Did he take any notes as to where each round went vs. where each round was called?
Did he have anything to drink before or during the shooting?
What did he have to eat before shooting?
Guys this can become a serious consuming project that lasts for years.
Not much of a chipmunk cheek while shooting
I hope the mag is not falling out- or why is he holding on to it?
What kind if glasses does he have on.. probably doesn’t help here.
Does he have ear plugs in or not ----- big difference as shooting goes on
As for the targets—get the correct ( number on the bottom ) for the yardage you are shooting – do this right.
How far is the finger past the trigger? Is the shooting finger touching the rifle any place besides the trigger?

This can go on for a while it doesn’t happen over night….
Glad to see him shooting – don’t give up

 

[wally]

You kick a 223 into the dirt 6 " under a soda can and it still jumps!

Thats the fun of it! I like to try and hit a 2-liter pop bottle right at the the ground just under it, then it launches in the air (as much as 30+ ft high if you hit it just right!) further down range and repeat until its over the backstop.

Other than sighting in or deciding if a new ammo brand is good or plinking ammo I find shooting paper boring, often useful but always boring.

--wally.

 

[lionking]

spoon,feeling good today eh?

 

[lionking]

no no...if you are going to shoot soda cans you gotta shoot them in the water,nothing like the big splash and seeing little pieces of can float thru the air.

 

[Covey Leader]

It would make a difference if he would have told us this is the first time out or 100th time out to the range.

3rd time out

Is he taking notes at to how cold it is

20 dgrees the first time, 30 the second, and 45 the 3rd.

Did the sun change, clouds change, what about the wind during 50 yard shooting and the 100 yard shooting??

Nothing changed

Is this rifle new or did you pick it up off someone else?

New

WHEN WAS THE last time you cleaned the rifle?

After the 2nd trip to the range

Did he take any notes as to where each round went vs. where each round was called?

No

Did he have anything to drink before or during the shooting?
What did he have to eat before shooting?

a protein bar b4 the shooting. I was drinking a vitamin water(grape) in between magazines.

Not much of a chipmunk cheek while shooting

I dont know what this means

I hope the mag is not falling out- or why is he holding on to it?

Its not falling out. I am new to the AR world and my hand felt comfortable there.

Does he have ear plugs in or not

There in and the glasses are dark.

How far is the finger past the trigger?

The tip is about an inch and an eighth past the trigger


Thanks everyone for your help. i will be heading back out on monday to try some of your suggestions. i will post a report.

 

[Covey Leader]

Hey spoon, if you dont have any pointers to add to the thread, then dont post in it.

 

[taliv]

you going shooting this saturday, Covey? what you going to try different?

 

[Covey Leader]

you going shooting this saturday, Covey? what you going to try different?

Taliv, i'll be going to the range on either sunday or monday.

I am going to try several things different. I bought a real set of front and rear rests. I bought some different ammo to try. I am going to try and concentrate on my front sight more. I am going to pay more attention to my trigger pull.

I also bought some new targets. I received one set i bought and i am waiting on the others. hopefully they will be here b4 i go to the range. These targets have a better contrast between the bullseye and the backround. Another pointer from people on the site. I will post pics. Thanks again for all your help guys.

 

[SwampWolf]

Hey spoon, if you dont have any pointers to add to the thread, then dont post in it.

Sometimes you need information to make points.