RCBS .45-270-SA bullet & BP in 1883 Colt SAA?

[gilgsn]

Hello,

Would this bullet be too heavy for the old guy? It comes out at about 280-285gr.
If this seems reasonable, how much black powder could be safely used, and should the bullet be fairly soft, maybe not too tight or heavily crimped?
Or would a 200gr bullet with say 30gr of 3F be a safer bet?

Thanks!

Gil.

 

[floridaboy]

If you're using real black powder with the RCBS bullet, you'll be fine. 2f would be best.

 

[gilgsn]

Thanks. I also have Lee's 200gr and 255gr RNFP molds, but I prefer the RCBS profile (mine I think is .454). I haven't slugged the bore or the chambers because I only put a hold the gun, I don't have it yet. I'm only going to shoot it occasionally of course, if I complete the sale. Other bullet suggestions would be welcome, Keith style. I wouldn't want to blow it up, so I'd rather err on the side of safety, but I also don't want to shoot mouse farts.
Anyone here has one of that era? What are your bore and chamber sizes? Thanks.

Gil.

 

[floridaboy]

If this is an original 1800s Colt, I think the 255 grain would be closest to the original bullet. I'd have it very carefully checked out by a competent gun smith before firing it at all.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think Elmer blew up a gun with a 300 grain bullet but he was using smokeless and had pushed a bullet which jumped crimp back into the cylinder... maybe too far.

My main concern would not be the slightly greater weight, but whether it would carry enough lube to keep BP fouling soft.

 

[Dave T]

Why exceed the original 255 g bullet weight? At full black powder loading that produces a very powerful round that would be completely safe in your gun, provided it is in good functioning condition.

Dave

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

First of all, make sure the old Colt is in good physical condition and locks up properly. This should be done by a gunsmith experienced with single action revolvers.

First Generation (1873 until 1940) Colt Single Action Army groove diameter was .454. After WWII this was reduced to .451 to match the groove diameter of 45ACP. That is why there are generally two different diameters of bullets available for 45 Colt, .454 and .452. Cylinder throats can vary in diameter. The best choice in bullets for a particular revolver's chamber throats is one that will hang up slightly in the chamber throat. A bullet that falls through is too small, a bullet that needs considerable force to be shoved through is too large.

Black Powder cartridges should always be completely filled with Black Powder, and the powder should be slightly compressed. NEVER leave airspace in a cartridge loaded with Black Powder. The best load will be one where the powder is compressed between 1/16" to 1/8" when the bullet is seated. I am saying it this way, because it is difficult to determine the exact grain weight of powder for any particular bullet/brass combination. Modern solid head brass does not have as much internal capacity as the old balloon head cases. 40 grains of powder is the figure usually quoted for the old 250 grain bullets, but it is tough to stuff 40 grains of powder into modern cases without compressing the powder more than necessary. Also, not all Black Powder weighs the same, each brand weighs a slightly different amount. So XX grains of powder A will occupy a different amount of space, and be compressed a different amount than XX grains of powder B. Lastly, the amount of compression will also be dictated by the shape of the bullet, and more importantly, how much of the bullet protrudes inside the case when it is seated.

The best way I have found to determine the proper amount of Black Powder for a specific bullet is to measure the length of the bullet under the crimp groove. Like this:






Then transfer the measurement to the case, indicating where the bottom of the bullet will sit after being seated.






You can also make up a little ruler from a narrow stick. Liked this:






The proper amount of powder for that particular bullet will be the amount that fills the case between 1/16" and 1/8" ABOVE the bottom of the little ruler. (No, those are not my fingernails, those are my long suffering wife's)



If you want to know how much the powder weighs, for reference, pour it out and weigh it. That will be the correct amount of powder for that combination of bullet, powder brand, and granulation.

A 19th Century revolver in good condition should be able to take the pressure of this much powder with no problem. Notice I said in good condition.

Interestingly enough, a 200 grain bullet will probably protrude less into the case than a 250 grain bullet (that has been my experience) so the lighter bullet will actually require more powder than the heavier bullet.

Yes, a soft lead bullet is best for Black Powder. A soft bullet will tend to obdurate better to fill the rifling if slightly undersized than a hard bullet.

And yes, you should not use modern 'hard' bullet lubes with Black Powder. Modern bullet lubes used with Black Powder will tend to form hard fouling in the bore which ruins accuracy and is difficult to remove. Soft, gooey bullet lubes are best with Black Powder. Commercial SPG lube is a good choice. There are also lots of home made Black Powder bullet lube recipes that work. I used to make up a mix of 50/50 Beeswax/Crisco when I was pan lubing hard cast bullets for Black Powder. There are lots of other recipes around.

You want a nice firm crimp. Nothing wishy-washy. You don't want a light crimp with Black Powder, you want a nice firm crimp so the bullet does not move until the powder develops enough pressure.

Standard Large Pistol primers are fine with Black Powder. Black Powder is easier to ignite than Smokeless, you do not need Magnum primers as some think.

Personally, I always load 45 Colt with a 250 grain Big Lube bullet over a case full of FFg. There is no need for anything bigger or heavier.

Be sure you are holding the revolver firmly, recoil will be stout. Nothing like a Magnum load, but it will let you know you have fired something serious.

 

[gilgsn]

Great info thanks. The consensus seems to be that 2F will produce less pressure... I have seen posts saying 3F was better, but I'd definitely go for less pressure. I thought about a bit less powder with a lubricated wad between powder and bullet, like with cap & ball guns, because 280gr is heavy, though it probably takes more space in the case, and that means less powder.
My sizing die is .452, but the mold is .454, so I could use soft lead and not resize, they should come out at .454. I'd need to slug bore and chambers of course.

Gil.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

You can use either FFg or FFFg in 45 Colt. Generally speaking, all other things being equal, you will get between 60 fps - 100 fps more using FFFg instead of FFg. I suspect the pressure is less with FFg, but I have no information to verify that. I have been using FFg in 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40 for years.

Regarding lubricated wads, I have tried just about everything under the sun. If you use a wad such as a Wonder Wad you will have to cut down considerably on the volume of powder. Really no need for a Wonder Wad, other than cutting down on the case volume it will not do much for you. If you want to cut down on case volume, you can use 45 Schofield cases. They are available from Starline.

Generally speaking, the lube groove on most commercial bullets is not big enough to hold much Black Powder compatible bullet lube. In a rifle, if you use a conventional bullet and lube it with a Black Powder compatible lube, the bullet will usually run dry of lube somewhere near the muzzle. This results in hard caked fouling being deposited in the bore for the last six inches or so. This will tend to ruin accuracy. It is simple enough to swab the fouling out with a water based Black Powder fouling. With a revolver, if you use a conventional bullet with a skimpy lube groove it will probably carry enough soft Black Powder bullet lube to keep the bore lubed its entire length without any fouling build up.

Then there are Lube Cookies. A thin wad of lube placed between the powder and the bullet. When I was pan lubing commercial bullets they did not carry enough lube for a rifle, so I experimented with Lube Cookies. I would cut them from a sheet of beeswax using the mouth of a cartridge to separate them from the sheet. I would separate the lube cookie from the powder with a thin card wad so the lube would not adulterate the powder. I found that the lube cookie tended to glue itself to the base of the bullet, causing the bullet to spin like a lopsided dart and accuracy was terrible. So then I was shoving a card wad on top of the powder, the lube cookie, then another card wad to separate the bullet from the lube cookie. Much too much work. Then I discovered Big Lube bullets. They carry enough soft lube to keep the bore of a rifle lubed its entire length. But for a revolver, you can probably get away with commercial bullets lubed with a soft BP compatible lube.

Here are the components I use for 45 Colt. The bullet is the Big Lube PRS 250 grain bullet. You can see how big the lube groove is. But you probably can get away with a standard commercial bullet or mold with a standard Smokeless lube groove. The 2.2CC Lee Dipper provides the correct amount of powder for this bullet in a 45 Colt case giving me about 1/16" of compression. But you should determine for yourself what the best charge is for the bullet you are using.






In case you are interested, here is the website for Big Lube bullets. They do not sell bullets, only molds.

https://www.biglube.com/

 

[CraigC]

I think Elmer blew up a gun with a 300 grain bullet but he was using smokeless and had pushed a bullet which jumped crimp back into the cylinder... maybe too far.

My main concern would not be the slightly greater weight, but whether it would carry enough lube to keep BP fouling soft.

It blew with a cut down and resized 300gr .45-70 bullet over a case full of blackpowder. He attributed it to a detonation.

 

[gilgsn]

I used to have that book, excellent read. I remember the 300gr SAA blow up story... Presumably fine powder too if I remember well. Anyway if you compress the powder too much the granulation changes...
Those old guns really aren't made of glass if one reads accounts from "back then," though they sure pushed them, and they were not collector's items yet. As to my choice of a 280gr bullet instead of the 255, I just happen to have that mold and I like it. My two Lee molds are .452, probably too small. It probably all depends on how many charges went off in that cylinder and if it was ever abused. Steel, even the kind they used, I presume doesn't just "go bad." 30gr of extra lead doesn't seem like a whole lot more. 30gr of BP with the 280-285gr RCBS is probably equivalent in pressure to a 255gr bullet over 35gr of BP, but I'm just guessing here.

In you guy's opinion, would a starting load of 25gr with that bullet be a good start? Maybe a wad could fit in between to keep everything tight.

I have a Chrony, so if not pressure, I can check speed. With my Pietta replica (sold), I used to aim for 875ft/sec out of a 4-3/4 barrel, but of course, that was using smokeless powder in a modern revolver.

I have never heard of lube cookies, thanks again Driftwood Johnson.

Anyway, if I complete that sale I'll be so broke that I probably won't be able to buy powder before New Year. It's also hard to gather everything here in France. BP stuff is available, but choices are very limited when it comes to bullet molds. I still have a bunch of Starline cases, the RCBS mold and reloading tools, but that's it. The only good thing here aside from the food is that most guns manufactured before 1900 fall into the American equivalent of "curio & relics," including the Colt SAA as long as the serial number does not exceed 190,000. You only need your ID to buy one, if you can find one... Everything else is heavily regulated, including parts like cylinders and barrels. If you stop going to the range regularly they take your guns away! Not so with an antique...

But I digress, thanks again guys!

Gil.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

First off, let's address your statement about the steel in this old revolver. The frame and cylinder of that revolver are most likely iron, not steel.

Starting in 1873, Colt was using high grade malleable iron for cylinders and frames. Not steel.

Sometime in mid 1883, at approximately Serial Number 96,000, Colt began using transitional low/medium carbon steel for cylinders and frames. I say approx SN 96,000 because nobody is really sure exactly when the changeover was made. That material was used up to approximately SN 180,000, in mid 1898. After SN 180,000 Colt was using medium carbon steel. Towards the end of this time Colt began using better heat treatment for cylinders. But it was not until 1900 that Colt felt confident enough in their materials to factory warranty the Single Action Army for Smokeless Powder.

So, depending on where your SN falls, the frame and cylinder are either made from malleable iron, or low/medium carbon steel.

For that reason, if it were my gun, I would shy away from the 285 grain bullet you are talking about. Stick with 250 grains. Or even the 200 grain bullet. If the bullet is only .002 undersized of the rifling that is not a big deal. You can slug the bore with one of those bullets and you should still see some nice strong rifling marks cut onto the bullet. Plus, if you use a soft alloy, either pure lead or just a small amount of tin added, the bullet may swell up in the bore to fill up the rifling anyway. Just so you know, if you cast from pure lead, your bullets will shrink more on cooling than if you add a small amount of tin. Back when I was casting my own bullets I usually added 4 - 6 ounces of tin per 10 pounds of lead when casting for 45 Colt, so my bullets did not shrink too much as they cooled.

I dunno where you heard that compressing the powder too much will change the granulation. I have been loading ammunition with Black Powder for a long time and never heard that. What actually happens when you compress the powder is the top layer, maybe 1/16" or so gets compressed into a crust. The rest of the powder does not get compressed at all. I have picked out plenty of charges over the years to notice this. The granulation does not change at all. The compression does not extend through the entire powder charge because of the shape of the grains. The top most stuff mashes against itself, the stuff underneath does not get compressed at all. If one were to try to stuff 40 grains of powder into a modern case, the top crust of compressed powder would just get thicker.

Regarding reducing the powder charge, The Army actually reduced the charge to 30 grains, to reduce felt recoil from the old 40 grain commercial load. This box of ammo was made in 1874, and you can see the cartridges only have 30 grains of powder in them. The extra space inside the cartridges was taken up with cardboard wadding.






No, these are not rimfire rounds, these copper cased rounds use the old Benet inside priming, so they look like rimfires on the outside. The creases near the base of the cartridge held an anvil plate in place against the base of the cartridge. The firing pin compressed the priming material between the back of the case and the anvil plate to fire the round. A modern round is all the way on the right.






If you want to shoot reduced loads, rather than messing about with wads trying to get the right thickness of wads and the right amount of compression, you might try using filler. Many Black Powder shooters use filler to reduce the recoil of Black Powder rounds. Most common is CAS is Grits, but I used to use Corn Meal. First I poured in the powder, then the cornmeal. I measured each of them out with a Lee dipper, using a very tiny dipper for the corn meal. It has been quite a while, but I believe I was using about 30 grains of powder. A small amount of corn meal was added so that when the bullet was seated it actually compressed the corn meal, not the powder. This worked fine, but it was a pain adding both powder and filler, so I eventually got rid of the filler and went back to filling the case with powder. But I am shooting 2nd Gen Colts made in the 1960s and 1970s. If you want to try reduced loads in that old girl, you might want to try that. 25 or 30 grains should be fine. Or see if you can find some 45 Schofield brass. 45 Schofield is shorter than 45 Colt so it holds less powder. I buy mine from Starline. I do not know if you can find any where you live.

Left to right in this photo are a modern 45 Colt, a Benet primed 45 Colt, a Benet primed 45 Schofield, and a modern 45 Schofield.






You are a little bit confused about Curio and Relic vs Antiques. Here in the US, any firearm made before 1899 is an antique. A Curio and Relic has to be at least 50 years old and it must be in the original configuration it was in when it left the factory. Interesting about that SN cutoff of 190,000. The SN range of the SAA for 1899 was 182,001 to 192,000.

 

[CraigC]

I agree with the above. I even switched from 250's to 200's in my modern replicas. The RCBS270SAA is a great bullet for the SAA but it's really for sporting use in newer guns. Dave Scovill, guy who designed the bullet, uses it with 2400 at 1100fps for hunting and outdoor use. That's its intended purpose. If I'm not hunting with these guns, I see no reason to push it.

As I recall, the gun Keith blew up was with finely ground blackpowder, probably a good bit finer than FFFFg.

 

[gilgsn]

Sometime in mid 1883, at approximately Serial Number 96,000, Colt began using transitional low/medium carbon steel for cylinders and frames.

Darn, it's in the 87K range... Maybe I should skip this one if I want to shoot it, even with mild loads and 200gr bullets...?

Gil.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Well, that is of course up to you.

Malleable iron is stronger than the cast iron a frying pan is made from, but neither is it modern arsenal steel. Lots of old guns were made from iron and not steel. Those old guns were fired with Black Powder loads all the time. And although not advisable, it has probably been fired with Smokeless too over the years. I have several antique Smith and Wesson revolvers made in the 1870s and 1880s that probably have iron cylinders and I do shoot them with Black Powder loads.

That is why if you buy the gun, you should have somebody who is familiar with single action revolvers go over it and make sure it is sound, and locks up properly.

 

[gilgsn]

Definitely, thank you! The seller also has an 1897 .38-40 with a 4-3/4" barrel, and I am looking really hard at it too...
Gil.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

A Colt made in 1897 will not have been factory warrantied for Smokeless powder, but the steel will be stronger than the iron in the older gun. The downside is 38-40 is a bit fussier to reload than 45 Colt. I don't know how much experience you have reloading, but the thinner brass at the case mouth of both 38-40 and 44-40 makes it more likely to crumple the case mouth unless you are very careful and set your dies just right. Also, because they are tapered cases, there are no carbide dies for 38-40 or 44-40 so case lube must be used when sizing the brass. Not a big deal, but wiping the case lube off after the rounds are all done is one more step I go through when loading 38-40 or 44-40.

I purposely crumpled the neck on this 44-40 round to show what can happen when loading 38-40 or 44-40 if the dies are not properly set up, or if one rushes. I always say these cartridges are not difficult to load, but they are a bit fussier than loading 45 Colt with its thicker brass at the case mouth. If one sets up the dies carefully, and takes his time, it is not difficult to load this cartridge, I have loaded thousands of 44-40s over the years. Not quite so many 38-40s.






Left to right in this photo the cartridges are 45 Colt, 44-40, and 38-40. You can barely see the slight taper on the 44-40. 38-40 is really nothing more than the 44-40 necked down a bit more. It takes a .401 diameter bullet. 38-40 is a great old cartridge, just a bit fussier to reload than 45 Colt.






I use Starline brass and a Big Lube 38-40 bullet when loading 38-40.

http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=ab4ea15a-a002-435f-a5a4-f9e9035a0082



This 38-40 Bisley Colt left the factory in 1909, so it has been proofed for Smokeless powder, but I only shoot it with Black Powder.






Probably a little bit difficult to see, but it has the VP stamped within an inverted triangle on the front left side of the trigger guard. This stands for Verified Proof. Colt started stamping this on their guns that were OK for Smokeless powder around 1901.

 

[gilgsn]

Great info, thank you. I do have a lot of experience reloading and casting, though not with black powder in cartridges, but the .38-40 does not worry me. It's also a good way to make sure I don't load a smokeless .45 Colt cartridge in a BP only gun.

I put a deposit on that 1897 .38-40, even though the 1883 .45 was more desirable from a collector's standpoint.

I'll load 35gr under a 180gr or so bullet. I'm looking at the Big Lube bullet, 190gr. I saw that you had worked with them, correct? Anyway, I'd never load smokeless in that gun. I would prefer a Keith style SWC...

Fortunately Starline brass is available here in France, so I have no qualms about the caliber. I'll post photos after I get it

Gil

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I'll load 35gr under a 180gr or so bullet. I'm looking at the Big Lube bullet, 190gr. I saw that you had worked with them, correct? Anyway, I'd never load smokeless in that gun. I would prefer a Keith style SWC...

Remember what I said about how to determine the correct amount of powder for a particular cartridge and bullet combination?

Remember what I said about not all powders weighing the same?

Use my method. Once you have determined the correct volume of powder for the cartridge/bullet combination, (1/16" - 1/8" of compression when the bullet is seated) then weigh it. Do not assume 35 grains of whatever powder you are using will give you the correct amount of compression.

The first time I tried loading 38-40 with the Big Lube bullet I used the same amount of powder I was using in 44-40. 44-40 and 38-40 cases do not have the same capacity. Because the 38-40 neck is narrower than the 44-40 neck, the 38-40 has less powder capacity. I made the mistake of assuming I could use the same powder charge in both. I was wrong. The powder charge was too much for the 38-40 case and when the bullet seated it was not able to compress the powder enough to seat all the way. Instead what happened was the bullets got mashed and expanded slightly in diameter. I did not notice it until I tried to chamber some in a Winchester Model 1873. The rounds would not chamber and jammed the rifle. I had the devil of a time getting them out.

Use my method to determine the correct amount of powder to pour into the 38-40 with the BIg Lube bullet. Do not assume that XX grains will be correct. If you want to weigh the charge afterwards for reference, pour it out onto your scale and weigh it.

You do understand that Big Lube only sells molds right, not bullets?

If you want to buy bullets, contact this guy. I have no idea if he can ship overseas.

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

 

[gilgsn]

Use my method to determine the correct amount of powder to pour into the 38-40 with the BIg Lube bullet. Do not assume that XX grains will be correct.

Thanks I will. I was thinking of a wad if there wasn't enough powder for proper compression but with the narrower neck it might not work so well, so yes, I will use your method.

You do understand that Big Lube only sells molds right, not bullets?

Oh yes.

Have a great week-end,

Gil.