Reading the inside

[gspn]

I learned very early on that gutting my own deer was not only cheaper than paying someone else to do it, but the inside of that deer could teach me a lot about terminal ballistics as well.

What are some things you've learned about your bullets performance by gutting and/or processing your own deer?

What things have been consistent over multiple incidents? What things were "one off" or outlier issues?

 

[IdaD]

How do you pay to have someone field dress your game? I get paying to have it butchered, although I also don't do that, but you gotta carry or otherwise get it out of the mountains first.

 

[Patocazador]

The only thing gutting a deer has taught me is "Try to get someone else to do it for you."

Seriously, you can tell what the deer are feeding on by opening the stomach after gutting if your bullet hasn't already opened it up for you.

 

[gspn]

Not everyone has mountains dude. I'd guess that most of the hunters in the eastern United States are never more than a 10 minute ATV ride from their truck, and then a 20 minute truck ride to town. Almost every processor around here will offer to gut and skin it for you.

I don't use processors, I do it all myself, but plenty of guys around here will pick up the deer with their tractor, put it in their truck, and have someone else do it all.

When I hunt out west it's usually a long backpack to the truck with the meat on my back. Completely different story there.

 

[gspn]

@Patocazador, The thread is about bullet performance, not what deer have been eating.

For example, for a number of years I kept all the bullets I recovered from animals. These were mostly ballistic tips, and most had lodged themselves just under the far side of the hide after shedding most of their core. The average weight retention on those recovered bullets was roughly 30%.

Many things can be learned by studying the wound ballistics involved with a hunt. How does a particular bullet hold up after hitting bone? Does it continue to travel straight with lots of weight retention? Or does it come apart on impact, depriving you of penetration. Is your bullet fragmenting? Is that ruing meat? Would changing your shot placement help or hurt your outcomes with a particular bullet?

This is the type of stuff I'm talking about.

 

[gotboostvr]

I can say that a 240gr Hornady XTP fired from a 44mag carbine will hold together and expand perfectly on deer sized game. Might not be ideal for larger and tougher critters, but has worked great blowing through both front shoulders, and just as good passing between the ribs.

Bullet sized entry wound, and a 1&1/2" exit wound after going through both shoulders. About an inch if just going through the ribs.

Never recovered one, always large exits.

 

[gspn]

I can say that a 240gr Hornady XTP fired from a 44mag carbine will hold together and expand perfectly on deer sized game. Might not be ideal for larger and tougher critters, but has worked great blowing through both front shoulders, and just as good passing between the ribs.

Bullet sized entry wound, and a 1&1/2" exit wound after going through both shoulders. About an inch if just going through the ribs.

Never recovered one, always large exits.

That's awesome. I never would've guessed that. Sweet performance.

 

[Barbaroja]

Recovering bullets from game is always fascinating.While I’ve only recovered a few lead fragments from .22s, I’ve tested a number of .22 hollowpoints by shooting squirrels in the chest and doing a necropsy before eating them to evaluate performance. Under the goal of finding rounds you can take a less that ideal shot ( like behind the shoulder) while ruining as little meat as possible. Mini mags are the best high velocity round I’ve tested as it doesn’t over expand in a squirrel. For example the Winchester truncated cone HP in the bulk “333” packs will blow a 2” wide entrance hole and begin fragmenting. Probably good quick kills for a raccoon or opossum sized animal but way over kill for squirrels.
The Subsonics seem promising with the Fiocchi subsonic HP being my favorite so far.

 

[entropy]

I learned very early on that gutting my own deer was not only cheaper than paying someone else to do it, but the inside of that deer could teach me a lot about terminal ballistics as well.

What are some things you've learned about your bullets performance by gutting and/or processing your own deer?

What things have been consistent over multiple incidents? What things were "one off" or outlier issues?

I was made a believer in Partitions when I processed my first two deer. Shots were @ 60 and 75 yards, respectively. The recovered bullet from the first one looked like the ads, and I also learned that you can do everything perfect, and the deer might still run. The first one dropped on the spot. I recovered the bullet in the left foreleg, after passing through the aorta, both lungs, smashing the legbone, it came to rest just under the skin. It was a quartering away shot. The second one had been chased through a swamp by another hunter and came out of the swamp 75 yards ahead of me on the logging road I was walking. (On my way back, it was barely legal shooting when I got him) Perfect broadside, again, passing through both lungs and the aorta, and exiting the thorax. That deer took off like greased lightning, ran into the woods, and I lost him. I walked the area until my flashlight (the good old metal RAY-O-VAC, it was 1982) died. We found him the next morning, curled underneath a log. With the top of his heart blown off, he ran 75 yards into the woods, and still tucked under that log. Of course, the difference was adrenaline.

Seriously, you can tell what the deer are feeding on by opening the stomach after gutting if your bullet hasn't already opened it up for you.

If your bullet did it, time to hit the range, and study up on cervid anatomy. While gutting her, I did nick the stomach of a nice fat doe I got on the farm I was living at, and about 5 lbs of 'creamed corn' spilled out.

 

[Random 8]

Processing my own game, from field dressing to sausage, steaks, chops, stew meat, roasts, etc has taught me much about terminal performance. #1 Put the bullet where it's supposed to go (more on that at the end). #2 Explosive expansion is not your friend. #3 Fragmentation early in penetration is ABSOLUTELY not your friend. #4 Related to 2 and 3, keep the velocity moderate. #5 Hitting any significant bone is a bad thing, and causes unpredictable bullet behavior.

Consistent across multiple scenarios. A .30 caliber 150gr bullet of quality cup-and-core construction with controlled expansion engineering such as mechanical locks, jacket taper or skiving, or the Speer Hot Core process at 2100-2600fps impact velocity is right about perfect for killing deer you wish to eat. Ditto for a 7mm 154 or 145gr at 2400-2800fps. Pass through without severe quarter or double shoulder, limited high velocity fragmentation (they do shed weight, but fragments tend to remain along the impact vector on the far end of the wound channel), sufficient damage for DRT on CNS hits, and good and relatively short blood trails with heart/lung hits. Meat damage can be severe with heavy muscle and/or bone hits, largely due to hydrostatic bloodshot or secondary missiles from shattered bone (near shoulder impact). Impact through soft tissue to off-side shoulder is much less severe. The specific bullets in this category I have experience with are the Win Power Point, Hornady interlock, Rem Core Lokt (1990 vintage) and Speer Hot Core, old Nosler Solid Base.

One off anomaly. This is a fun "Kennedy bullet" scenario, leading to #1 and #5. Cartridge .280 Rem 160 Speer BTSP (not hot core) at impact velocity aprox 2600fps. Large doe, slight quarter away lunged forward as the trigger broke. Bullet struck aprox mid line of deer, centered on the femur in the hind quarter. Shattered the femur with little hydrostatic damage. Front of bullet sheared off aprox 20 grains, jacket folded in and bullet deflected almost 90 degrees. Penetrated abdomen wall, re-penetrated wall to outside, and followed the seam between abdomen wall and hide all the way around belly of deer lodging in far shoulder. Other than the front 20 grains sheared off, it was nearly intact, zero mushroom. 400 yards of very hard blood trailing that would have been impossible without fresh snow, I jumped her from her bed and a pure instinct snap shot on the run to the back of the head dropped her at 80 yards. Bullet performance and terminal result were more predictable on that shot.

 

[Hookeye]

Never seen a deer not field dressed at a processors. Been to a few, over the last 35 yrs LOL.

Theyll skin, cape or skull cap em. Skin or cape is just a few dollars more.

I dont trust em with either.
Kind of a rough crowd some employ.
And they are busy.

Anymore I just have em chop the head and I skull cap em at home.

Maybe get something good enough to cape this yr.

My back hurts and I took a while to dress last yrs buck. Bud timed me at 8 mins.
Blood not past my wrists. None on clothes.

 

[Hookeye]

Ive had a couple 200gr
35 rem bullets come apart after bone hit.
.243 whistled through.
Coup de grace 44 mag w 180 or 200s get jacket sep. Had a cup o boolits from deer, for years, add one here n there.
Took my photos, bunch of smaller racks, boolits and other and tossed em in the trash.

Nobody cared but me.

 

[hps1]

Have always delivered field dressed game to the processor (butcher shop), having field dressed most myself. Having said that, have recovered relatively few bullets from game. Tells me I probably am using more rifle than is absolute necessary for that particular game.

Yeah, Nosler partitions in 300 WM & the 338 WM probably not necessary for Texas whitetails, oryx, or even nilgai (450# or so), but they do the job so well, most resulting in complete passthrough, holding tight behind shoulder on broadside shots. Have never recovered a bullet from a whitetail or oryx with either caliber.


2000# Eland are a bit different. First shot from 375 h&h was broadside just behind shoulder & took the top off this bull's heart, exiting just behind his left shoulder (red exit). He ran a hundred yards or more into some heavy brush and I fired a hail Mary shot just as he entered the brush. Called the shot left around back of rib cage. Entry was the white elongated scar at back of rib cage and lodged just under skin (dark lump) just behind the shoulder. That bullet penetrated right at 30" and retained over 95% of it's weight, but as it turned out was completely unnecessary (and ineffective).

The two bullets in center of plaque below were 210 gr. Nosler partitions found just under skin after passing through the off shoulder of nilgai cows, fired from 338 WM. The top is a 300 gr. Swift A-Frame from 375 h&h recovered from eland bull shown above.


Regards,
hps

 

[Ru4real]

Reading the inside, I learned shooting straight down on a deer is not the best archery shot.

At dusk a doe walked under my stand and stopped. I drew and had to use my index finger to keep the arrow on the rest since gravity was pulling the arrow off the rest. The shot arrow went straight down thru the lungs and stuck into the ground. The doe trotted off 30 yards and bedded down. I watched the bedded doe for 30 min, and stood up in my ladder stand. When I stood, the doe got up and ran off.

It was now too dark for the bow, so I climbed down the ladder and grabbed my bloody arrow. Noticed no blood trail. Hmm? I walked 100 yards back to the house. Changed out of hunting clothes, put on my head lamp, grabbed my Ruger MK 2 and went out to find the deer. When I found the deer, it was standing perfectly still, head up, but ears drooped. I walked up behind it, put my 22 muzzle about an inch from its head behind the ear and pulled the trigger. Deer dropped right there, didn’t even kick.

When I gutted it the mystery was revealed. The arrow had sliced off a chunk of lung, and that chunk plugged the arrow exit hole at the bottom of the chest cavity, which is why there was no blood trail. When I walked up to the standing deer, just about all of its blood was in the chest cavity, which I discovered when I cut the diaphragm to remove the lungs / heart.

 

[LoonWulf]

I usually poke around the insides of the animals I've shot, besides the bullet making a real mess, I can usually gauge where it started to come apart.
My normal hunting bullets are heavy for caliber plastic tip cup'n cores, often target bullets. Nearly all of them penetrate somewhere between 2-6" then begin to expand violently. Berger's often grenade inside if about a foot, where as stuff like eldms/old amazes, often cone till there's nothing but a jacket and core stub. If they stay in the body they are usually under the skin on the off side.

One bullet group that's a bit of an anomaly to me are the eld-x
I've shot one 600ish pound feral bull with a 143 from my 6.5-284 and got about a foot of penetration before the bullet broke into largish fragments. Which didn't seem to cause a while lot of damage, but the animal still went down inside of 30yds. I can't remember if any other animals were taken with the eld-xs, but I watched maybe another dozen animals fall to the 140 and 147eld-ms, and those worked exactly as I'd expected of them.
Seen 4 or 5 100-150lb hogs shot with the 178s from an 06 and they dealt about the type of damage I'd expect. With just under 2' or so of total penetration, and a massive internal wound as well as an impressive exit wound.
Don't know if there's a difference in the way the eld-x works between calibers, but sure seemed like a different line of bullets between the 06 and the 6.5.

The only really disappointing performance I've had were from 150gr speed btsp, I put 3 into the side of a 60-80lb axis doe, and had all of them squirt out of the jacket inside of a few inches, lead didn't seem to really disperse and punched 1/2" holes out the car side. If one of the rounds hadn't broken her off shoulder I'm not sure if I'd have got her. Had that happen a couple more times and begin only using them at night where headshots were the norm.

Another one that wasn't necessarily disappointing, but didn't work the way I expected, was the 140gr .280 fusion rounds. Launch velocity right around 3000fps, impacts as high as probably 2700ish (using a calc to extrapolate). Bullets expanded slowly, and didn't transfer the shock I would expect. They do penetrate fantastically, and expand well, they just don't do it quickly.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

What are some things you've learned about your bullets performance by gutting and/or processing your own deer? What things have been consistent over multiple incidents?

That the most accurate load is better than the most expensively designed bullet.
That a great deal of deer and other North American large game is taken at 200 yards or less, and one does not need a belted magnum cartridge to harvest a lot of deer at those distances.
I've learned that the all lead bullet is vastly under rated for hunting in heavy brush at 100 yards or less
That when using an all lead bullet, the hunter relies on shot placement and not expansion, although when fired at a vital zone, expansion will always happen due to bone impact.
A large diameter, heavy bullet, will pass through in a broadside shot out to 200 yards, and that two holes collapse lungs and humanely down the deer faster than the bullet that is caught on the inside of the skin, opposite of the impact spot without an exit hole.
That the shoulder shot is also an excellent choice, as the bullet, whether the all lead of my large bore rifle at a moderate speed or the smaller, jacketed bullet at a high speed, tends to render damage not only to the shoulder but to the spine of the animal as well, dropping the deer.
That you don't need "hydrostatic shock" nor a "head shot" to drop a deer literally "in its tracks", or within 20 yards of where it was standing when hit. (see the first and the second entry above)

LD

 

[Random 8]

I'll add another one-off story. This one really surprised me. This was with my brush gun, a sporterized (not by me) Mosin Nagant M44. Bullet was old-stock Hornady 174 RN. Impact velocity unknown, have never had opportunity to chronograph this one. Probably in the 2100-2300fps range. Dead broadside hit on a large doe, high lung area, 15% downhill grade. Bullet contacted no ribs, and just grazed the top of the lungs. I can only assume the lungs were deflated at the precise moment of impact, as the vector through the rib cage should have significantly impacted lung tissue. Bullet showed evidence of expansion with a good quarter sized hole through the off-side ribcage. Very sparse blood trail, deer was moving as-if uninjured. After first blood, deer was moving towards my wife's location and on public land so I decided to keep moving her. After a ~300 yard trail with no beds, she walked in front of my wife who put her down with a 150 Speer from her .308 through the heart with damage akin to "standard performance" in my first post. I have used this bullet and load previously and always got good performance with the RN initiating expansion rapidly and plowing the mushroom through the other side causing excellent damage and blood trail.

 

[Jeff62]

I don’t recall not having an exit wound even when shooting deer with my 45lc. But unzipping the deer is a good idea South Arkansas to help with cooling and to get the heart and liver. That’s good vittles.

 

[FL-NC]

Every deer I shot with Winchester 7.62x39 soft point the bullet never exited, so blood trails weren't great. I get excellent performance in deer with 100 grain power point 243's and 140 grain Federal nontypicals in 6.5 CM. I have never even almost lost a deer or hog I shot with Hornady 75 grain BTHP 223. Not only was the damage intense, every single one came out sideways. I have only shot 1 deer with Hornady SUB-X 300 BLK 190 grain subsonic- great wound channel and got an exit wound, and the deer only ran about 20 yards before she crashed.

 

[marksman13]

I don’t care one bit about playing around inside of a deer or pig. I don’t remember the last time I actually gutted an animal that I shot. I have skinned a bunch of pigs in the past few years, but no need to gut them. Deer I take to my local processor just like I picked them up. I HAPPILY pay him his $25 to gut and skin the animal and I pick it up three days to a week later.

Never been interested enough to go digging around in there looking for a bullet, honestly.

 

[gspn]

I don’t care one bit about playing around inside of a deer or pig. I don’t remember the last time I actually gutted an animal that I shot. I have skinned a bunch of pigs in the past few years, but no need to gut them. Deer I take to my local processor just like I picked them up. I HAPPILY pay him his $25 to gut and skin the animal and I pick it up three days to a week later.

Never been interested enough to go digging around in there looking for a bullet, honestly.

Nothing wrong with that my man.

 

[marksman13]

Yep

Nothing wrong with that my man.

Deer are not so bad, but the first pig I ever cut into that had an old festering bullet wound, just nearly broke me from eating meat for the rest of my life. Not joking a little bit. If it wasn’t for our non-profit, I would never put a blade to a pig’s hide again. The things we do for love of fellow man...

 

[LoonWulf]

Yep

Deer are not so bad, but the first pig I ever cut into that had an old festering bullet wound, just nearly broke me from eating meat for the rest of my life. Not joking a little bit. If it wasn’t for our non-profit, I would never put a blade to a pig’s hide again. The things we do for love of fellow man...

Ive seen a few that were pretty nasty, semi fresh fighting wounds are some of the worst.

I also really don't like having blood on me, so usually cut the chest all the way to the base of the throat and rip everything down and out from there. On the way up there its pretty easy to see the path of destruction thru the body cavity.

 

[Speedo66]

Not everyone has mountains dude. I'd guess that most of the hunters in the eastern United States are never more than a 10 minute ATV ride from their truck, and then a 20 minute truck ride to town. Almost every processor around here will offer to gut and skin it for you.

I don't use processors, I do it all myself, but plenty of guys around here will pick up the deer with their tractor, put it in their truck, and have someone else do it all.

When I hunt out west it's usually a long backpack to the truck with the meat on my back. Completely different story there.

I don't really think you can make a blanket statement like that about eastern hunting. I hunted in the Catskill and Adirondack Mts., and walked plenty far in. No 4x4, tractor, etc. I dragged them out, sometimes over a mile, by myself. Damned if I was going to drag their insides, too. Same for everyone else i hunted with.

To be honest, I've never heard of anyone taking a deer to a processor and having them gut it for you, that's why it's called "field" dressing.

As far as what looking inside taught me, I used to use .308 165g. Norma Light Magnums and after seeing destroyed lungs, heart, etc., it taught me I never want to get shot. lol

 

[gspn]

I don't really think you can make a blanket statement like that about eastern hunting.

No blanket statement was made. I said "I'd guess that most".

To be honest, I've never heard of anyone taking a deer to a processor and having them gut it for you, that's why it's called "field" dressing.

It's only called "field dressing" if it's done in the field. Clearly the people having the butcher do it for them (like the hunter four posts above you) aren't calling it field dressing. Just about every processor around here has gutting on the price list. I have no idea how many people take them up on that, but I know more than a few who drop them off for the processor to do the whole job.

As far as what looking inside taught me, I used to use .308 165g. Norma Light Magnums and after seeing destroyed lungs, heart, etc., it taught me I never want to get shot. lol

Amen to that.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]