Real effective range.

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In the USMC they teach us to shot the M-16 (.223cal/5.55mm) at the 500 yard line with only iron sights and we hit the target all damn day (most of us). I really don't know what moa means (I know it STANDS for Minute of Angle, but what exactly does that mean???)
 
I really don't know what moa means (I know it STANDS for Minute of Angle, but what exactly does that mean???)
Same thing as 1 arcminute or 1 minute of arc, i.e. 1/60th of a degree. It's an angle measurement.

It works out to roughly 1" at 100 yards, 2" at 200, 3" at 300, etc.

(More precise value is 1.0471996 inch at 100 yards, but the whole inch is "close enough.")
 
Folks,
thank you for insight. Yes I suppose this is an attempt at a CQB sniper rifle. But it is driven by the fact that I just don't have time to play with a bunch of toys due to constraints on my time, so I would like one gun to possibly cover most situations and just train with that when I can.
I hear what you are saying about spotting anything at 400 yards, but if you have a rifle not capable of decent accuracy you will not hit anything at that range period, and anything closer in will be that much harder to score a hit on. So while I like the AK47 round and it would do out to 400 yards in a pinch, the platform falls short. I want decent accuracy in a long range platform so that when I can't hit stuff I will know it's my fault.:neener:

I have ran in two local 3-gun matches and they highlited how everything except my pistol was inadequate for that type of use, and I am trying to make up for it. :D

So far I am hearing FAL, M1A, and AR10-variants might fill the role of an "overall rifle".

NMShooter,
can you elaborate on what you looked at and what worked, what didn't and what you are currently running?
 
It's easy to get an AR-15 SBR which will shoot MOA.. and as long as you don't need a whole lot of terminal power, you can make hits as far as your sighting system allows.

There are a number of cartridges which use almost the same case size as .308 but are easier to make hits with at medium and long range. Also, a one MOA M1A or AR10 will be moderately easier to make hits with than an "SPR" or "DMR" style AR-15; however, they will "indicate" considerably better on steel.. and have enough power to take game at 400+ yards.

-z
 
if you want very good accuracy at 400+ yards go with a remington 700 sps-v in 223 or 308 or a 700 sps in 30-06, there are around 500 dollars plus $200 in a good scope...with a grant total of about $750...

there are a lot of very accurate guns out there...not just the remington 700 (my favotite)

take a look at a Saiga in .223 or 308 with a 20'' barrel they can do from 1 or 2.5 moas at 100 and 4 to 10 at 400 yards if you do your part.
 
I know this is heresy to even mention it, and I know it has all the limitations of 5.56 (a true 5.56 BTW) and I know it cost more than an AK. But look what an untrained cook an do with a new model Mini 14.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=356966

I don't know much, but I know my bone stock NRA Mini is short, easy to point, reliable, and reasonably affordable. And I'm pretty sure that once I get it zeroed I could hit an 8” plate at 250 yards all day long.

Just sayin'
 
This is a very interesting thread. Let me say first that I'm not big on "assault" type rifles. The closest I come is a couple of Yugo SKS's that I've glass bedded (that shoot quite well!) and my trusty ol' Garand.
In my opinion, there are a couple of issues here that should be addressed.
First is cartridge. I've never shot anyone in my life, but I have hunted for over 30 years and learned that, simply stated, bigger bullets = bigger holes = more internal damage = better killing potential. I have on occassion used .222/.223 for deer, but I only trust them at close ranges, (< 100 yds.) and only if used carefully with high quality hunting bullets. I think this is a very broad concensus. So, if a cartridge can't be trusted to cleanly kill an animal that is roughly the same size as a human being, why on earth would a person want to trust it to kill someone (or something) that bites or shoots back?!?!? Here's an interesting bit on that subject: The Last "Big Lie" of Vietnam Kills U. S. Soldiers in Iraq


Second is what many have already mentioned: sights/sight system. In my opinion based on my experience from hunting, shooting on the range here at my house, and competing in High Power matches, iron sights are practical to about 200 yds. under most field conditions AND that assumes good lighting. I know, the military shoots out to 600 yds. with iron sights, but this is done in broad daylight, at known ranges firing at large, black targets. My father was in the Army in the 50's and told me they fired their Garands out to 600 yds., but the bullseye was (if memory serves) 3 FEET in diameter. The NRA High Power 500 yard target uses a 24" bull. I've found that most reasonable quality any scope is better than iron sights.
Having said that, my "do all" rifle is Scout Rifle based on a Mauser action and chambered for the 308. I don't shoot 3-gun matches or any such thing, but I am immensely comfortable with and confident in this rifle. It has a Burris 2.75X forward mounted scope and a Redfield receiver sight as backup. I have fired it out to 350 yds. and the little scope works fine for everyday use.
That is why my vote 686+ would be for an M-14 with a Scout type scope set up. The 308 cartridge provides plenty of power and with the forward mounted scope, you pretty much have the best of both worlds; a sighting system that allows use with both eyes open for close range and reasonably easy use at longer ranges. If something goes awry with the scope, take it off and you're still in business.
Having said all that, I probably think differently than most. It seems most people think in terms of urban combat. I cannot imagine, in an "Excrement Contacting the Ventilation Device" situation being ANYWHERE that remotely resembles an urban setting. I rather imagine being as far away from masses of people as possible. That in itself strongly influences the type rifle I prefer.
My 2¢.....
35W


P.S.- What the hell is "overkill" in terms of combat cartridges? Is this in reference to a cartridge that will kill a bad guy "too dead"?
 
35Whelan has it about right. There is no one rifle that will do everything the OP wants. There are several reasons for this.

1. There is no single rifle with the inherent capability to do the job since the size and weight of a rifle desirable for long range performance will be a disadvantage at shorter ranges.
2. The optics needed to perform well at the longer ranges will be a disadvantage at shorter ranges.
3. Bullet performance will not be consistent over the distances, and hence terminal velocities, implied.

Best compromise, without going into too much detail, and it is not a great compromise, a 16 inch barreled, AR type ,308 with a low power scope - and burn a lot of ammo learning how to use it under all conditions.
 
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