What amount of magnification is required to make 1moa hits?

[alpha6164]

Assuming the rifle is 1moa capable, how much magnification is needed to make 1moa accuracy at 200 and 300 yards. With my Eotech, and using range/plinking ammo i can only do about 3-4moa at 100yards. The dot on the Eotech pretty much covers a large portion of the center of the target at a yards. I am sure that if i had a 4x-6x clear magnification, those shots could be tightened up quite a bit.


I have no intention of shooting past 200-300yards so i dont need some crazy magnification scope. I just need something to meet my stated needs. All inputs appreciated. Just to mention, i dont wear glasses and do have 20/20 vision.

 

[matt87]

Magnification does not affect accuracy, just how easy it is to see your target. Many people shoot very well with iron sights beyond 1000 yards.

 

[alpha6164]

^^^I understand. But if with 1x i cant decipher where I am on the target from shot to shot it will effect my accuracy.

 

[elmerfudd]

I think it can be done with iron sights, but it largely depends on your eyesight. I can shoot 2 MOA @ 100 yards with my K31 and GP11 using iron sights. I'm guessing the gun/ammo combination is probably capable of half that however. I shot about 6" groups at 200 yards today using an iron sighted K98 and Yugo sniper ammo, but I think I could have done better with my K31. Most of the rifles I have that will consistently shoot MOA have high powered scopes, but that's basically because they can take advantage of them. I wouldn't bother slapping a 16x scope on a 3 MOA rifle, but on a sub MOA .17 rimfire or .223 I would want some serious magnification. It's not that you couldn't fire that 1" group at 100 yards without it, it's just that it's easier when things look bigger.

I guess what's really important is how much magnification do YOU need to shoot MOA at those ranges. I could probably do it with 2 or 3 power, definitely with 4x and I'd prefer 10x or higher.

 

[Slamfire]

Your issue then is target recognition and not precision.

Bullseye target have very large black bulls. Yet iron sighted shooters shoot MOA on the things, out to 600 yards. Some even shoot MOA at 1000 yards with irons sights.

Of course, if you can't see your itty bitty target, you have a problem. You will also have a problem if you go to some huge magnification. Not only will your field of view be in inches, but the wobble will drive you nuts.


Try a bigger target, or get closer.

 

[birdbustr]

I see what alphas asking, but I'm not sure how small of a MOA DOT that dot sights are available in. The thing is that the smaller the dot (1MOA dot is smaller than 10MOA) the less it's going to obscure (cover up). I would say that a 1 MOA dot would cover up 1MOA at 100yds. So if it's covering up a 1MOA spot then how well would you expect to shoot at 100, 200, 300? Longer range, smaller dot or fine crosshairs would be better than thick.

It seem to me with a 1MOA sized dot scope that 1MOA would be about as perfect as possible at 100yds and then 2MOA at 200 and so on. Add Magnification to a dot scope and the dot will increase in size as you magnify, so magnification isn't the real issue.

 

[USSR]

alpha6164,

The most common scope in the U.S. has to be the 3x-9x variable. Find yourself one of these and you will be fine.

Don

 

[JWarren]

Many people shoot very well with iron sights beyond 1000 yards.

This is a new one on me. I understand that magnification does not literally affect accuracy, but I'm trying to imagine a decent shot with irons at 1,000.


-- John

 

[Fast Frank]

I have a S&W M&P15 with an EOTECH and a good BUIS setup.

At 200 yards, I shoot groups about 4" or so with the iron sights, and about 6" or so with the EOTECH.

That surprised me when I realized the EOTECH was not as accurate as my BUIS.

I expected the 1moa dot to give great accuracy, and it does, but iron sights are better.

So, in response to your question...

I believe the thing that matters is how fine the aiming point in your sighting system is.

Very fine crosshairs, or a 1/4 MOA dot would allow you to aim precisely regardless of magnification.

Sure, making the target look bigger will make it easier to use that fine aiming point, but it's not needed for shooting MOA.

 

[elmerfudd]

It seem to me with a 1MOA sized dot scope that 1MOA would be about as perfect as possible at 100yds and then 2MOA at 200 and so on.

It's not true though. First off, a 1 MOA dot will cover 1 MOA at any range. Yes, it will cover a greater area at 200 yards than at 100 yards, but it's still 1 MOA. Second, many front sight posts cover 6 MOA or more, yet some shooters still manage to shoot MOA or less with them.

With iron sights you simply put the bullseye in the middle of the front post, even if the front post seems several times larger than the bull. With a scope, you center it using the surrounding target. So if your bullseye is 1" at 100 yards, you center your dot dead in the center of the next largest ring or grid of squares on the target.

 

[rangerruck]

assuming you are shooting 308 or larger caliber, you should be able to see you hits at 100yds, with a 9 or 12 power, I mean actually seeing them. Now it is true, you do not need that kind of magnification at all; I shoot a lot of iron sights at 100, and as long as my front site is in exactly the same place, and I have good ammo, with a good rifle, I should be able to pull off moa, without seeing the strikes at all.

 

[MechAg94]

For me the important part is using a target with a bullseye that is large enough to focus on, but small enough that I am still aiming at a bullseye and not bracketing the target. I find that I like targets with a good circle and a white or red center dot I can see. Each to his own. Some targets I have trouble with at certain distances.

 

[Slamfire]

Many people shoot very well with iron sights beyond 1000 yards

.

This is a new one on me. I understand that magnification does not literally affect accuracy, but I'm trying to imagine a decent shot with irons at 1,000.

I think the English have a 1200 yard long range match.

Can't imagine seeing a target at 200 yards, never mind 1200 yards, in some of the weather they have.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

It depends upon how good your eyes are, your sights, the amount of ambient light, the contrast and size of your bullseye, and your skill level (and your sight radius, IF using irons).

If you have very good eyes, good iron sights with a fairly good sight radius, a decent skill level, and a bright day with a high-contrast bull, then getting 1 MOA is quite possible with no magnification; that is to say, with a 1.0 power iron or telescopic sight. For my eyes, which have fairly poor vision, I probably need a minimum of 3 or 4 power to hit 1 MOA at 100 yards - sure would be easier with at least a 6 or 7 power optic at that range. I could do it with a 1 power optical sight with 2 sighting planes easier than I could with iron sights, with 3 vertical planes involved. But even that would take me quite a few tries to do it - a lot of practice - at 1 power.

Of course, you have to have a good rifle and ammo combination, too (i.e. pure mechanical accuracy). 1 MOA is not all that common, despite what reading gun boards might lead you to believe.

The dot on the Eotech pretty much covers a large portion of the center of the target at a yards. I am sure that if i had a 4x-6x clear magnification, those shots could be tightened up quite a bit.

Yes, absolutely, and that there is why my AR15 has a 1.5-6x42mm on it (Sightron S2 to be exact). A 1x dot optic is *fantastic* for close-in fighting, out to 40 or 50 yards. It will also make hits that kill out to 200 yards or more on a man-size target. But it will NOT help you much at all with *precision* hits at 50 yards or more.

My suggestion: Get at least two rifles in 5.56 or 6.8 or 6.5: Set up a shorty carbine with a 1x optic like an Aimpoint or Eotech. Restrict it to CQB only. Don't even try to make small groups with it. It's for run and gun fighting.

Then set up a 2nd, 18-20" bbl rifle on the same platform in the same caliber (for mag compatibility) with a magnified optic - either an ACOG or just any old scope with a 1-4, 1.75-5, 1.5-6, fixed 4, 2-7, fixed 6, or even a 3-9 scope. This is your "all-purpose" and/or "mid-range" fighter/hunter.

Then set up a good bolt gun in a heavy, interdiction configuration for long ranges - something in say, .243 or .25-06 or .260 rem or 6.5x55 or 6.5-284 or .308 or 7mm rem mag or whathaveyou.

With those 3 rifles, you have the bases covered should the proverbial S hit the proverbial F.

If you have to forego ONE of those 3 rifles due to budget constraints, it should be the first one with the 1x optic, because the all-purpose rifle such as I have can handle that role, too, pretty well, espec. with an optic such as I have chosen which dials down to 1.0, 1.5, or 1.75 power. A couple of really good economical scope choices for the "all-purpose / mid-range" fighter are the Leupold VX1, 1-4x20mm ($200) and the Millett DMS 1-4x24mm (also around $200), and the Burris Fullfield II 1.75-5x20mm ($185).

 

[Geno]

Re: iron sights, using a peer sight facilitates an extremely clear and crisp picture of the target. The fact of the very long sight plane also helps.

Re: a scope, I have maintained sub-MOA to 225 yards with a 4X. That is about as low of magnification I would prefer with a scope. Any smaller and I would prefer the peep sights.

 

[ocabj]

Current 1000 yard slow fire prone record (with metallic sights) is shared by both Nancy Tompkins and her daughter Michelle Gallagher. 200-16x. That's on the standard NRA/Palma 1000 yard target. X-ring is 10" and the 10-ring is 20".

That means to shoot a 200 with 16 X's, 16 of the 20 shots fired were within 1 MOA, while 4 shots expanded the group to 2MOA at worst (assuming one of the 4 shots was on the edge of the 10 ring).

 

[GarandOwner]

What amount of magnification is required to make 1moa hits?

It varies from person to person, I can keep my 1903A3 sub MOA with iron sights at 100 yards, so no magnification is "required"

But if with 1x i cant decipher where I am on the target from shot to shot it will effect my accuracy.

Then your personal need is more than 1x, but the "required" magnification will vary from person to person, one of your problems is that you are using holosights, these were designed for fast target acquisition not precision shooting. Try iron sights, then you may be able to shoot MOA with your rifle......but that is assuming both YOU and the rifle are capable of these shots.

Also if you are using cheap ammo, dont expect to get sub MOA results even if you have a sub MOA rifle. While plinking ammo is great for long days at the range, they arent going to give you the accuracy you are looking for. The three main ingredients to accuracy are: quality ammo, quality gun, and quality shooter, if any of the three of these are lacking then accuracy will falter.

 

[qajaq59]

Before you buy a scope try putting the center of the target on TOP of your dot instead of covering it. That may help.

 

[moooose102]

well, i am not a moa shooter, i wish i was that good, but it probably just isnt going to happen. but for 2-300 yards, i would sugest something like a 4-12 power scope. that way, you can get the right amout of "zoom" to let you see the target. works for me.

 

[moooose102]

as for iron sights, if i can hit the target with them @ 50 yards, i am happy. for me (and my eyesight) they are pretty much useless. the new "glow sights" work better, at least i can hit in the middle 5" with those. good enough for deer hunting @ 50 yards. and that is about all i would ever use them for, IF something happened to my scope!

 

[Limeyfellow]

I think the English have a 1200 yard long range match.

Can't imagine seeing a target at 200 yards, never mind 1200 yards, in some of the weather they have.

That we do, at Bisley and so on. Of course on such shoots, we generally use fancy peep sights which helps a bit, but it is way beyond my eyesight. I am limited to about 500-600 yards with iron sights, before I have real trouble making out anything on the target.

 

[cracked butt]

If you use a front aperture sight instead of a post it makes a huge difference as well. The target sort of 'lights up' when its centered.

 

[briansmithwins]

I've done some 1MOA shooting at a rifle class I took. I was using a 16" AR scoped with a 2MOA Aimpoint with a 2.5X magnifier behind it. Practice and the favor the the gods were with me that day.

12+X scopes don't make small groups any easier, trigger control, breathing, consistent ammo, consistent sight picture are all required. BSW

 

[elmerfudd]

MOA shooting really isn't very difficult unless you make it that way. For the most part it's a test of your equipment and your ammo rather than any skill. Start with a solid bench. Use a rest and a back bag. Set your scope so that it's parallax free. Take up a position behind your rifle. Let it slide back and forth a couple of times and make sure it stays in line with your target. At this point you should be able to hold the rifle rock solid on the bullseye, except your heartbeat might be throwing you off a little bit with every beat. Add a t-shirt or some other padding between the stock and your shoulder to help minimize this.

That's basically it. Having a very light trigger helps as well. If you notice, everything that I mentioned is basically to eliminate or minimize the human part of the equation. With rimfires and airguns I've even seen people who make no contact with the rifle at all except to pinch the trigger with their thumb and index finger. There's not much skill involved with this type of shooting unless you start shooting at long range and get into doping the wind. It's mostly a test of your equipment and your ammunition, but if those are up to par practically anyone can shoot MOA in this manner.

MOA shooting isn't nearly as common as you might think based on the internet. I spent about 3 hours on the range yesterday. There were probably 6 people shooting at any given time and in that time I think only 2 of us shot any repeatable minute of angle groups. The guy next to me had a Tikka in .308 and with the right load he was getting about 3/4 MOA shooting from the prone with a bipod. With Federal Match he was getting about 1.5 MOA @ 200 yards. I shot a few dime sized groups with my CZ452 at 50 yards that were probably right around 1 MOA. I didn't see anyone else even come close. My PSL was doing about 4 MOA with Czech silvertip, so I was disappointed with that. Hopefully the 7N1 I received today will shoot considerably better.

 

[mavracer]

alpha,

the dot sights are made for rapid target aquisition and 2-3 moa.If you want to shoot 1 moa turn the intensity down on your eo tech so you can see bullseye thru it. you will be better able to center dot then. of course this ruins your ability to pick up the dot quickly.