Was thinking of a red dot and magnifier..

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SwissArmyDad

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But I tried out a 1-4x-24 Burris scope at turners...and Man, I was surprised how bright it was.

Checked out an aimpoint A-1, a vortex sparc, and this little burris, very much liked the 1x image better than a red dot.

Loved how much magnification I got @ 4x, too.

Questions

1. Seems like it would make 200-300 yard shots very doable. How far are y'all shooting with this type of setup?

2. I understand there to be a difference between this optic and one that has an "illuminated" reticle. Is that correct?

3. Would something like an Eotech with a magnifier look fairly similar to this type of scope?

4. If one of my goals is to keep my Midlength carbine as light as possible, would with this type of scope on a quick release mount be a good choice? Do they retain their zero with those types of mounts?



Lots of questions I know, thanks in advance!

SwArDad
 
My experience is somewhat limited - I just mounted a Vortex Strikefire on my A4 and don't have much time with it.

From reading reviews on the web, by all reports they do seem to hold zero when removed and replace, but I suspect that has more to do with the mount than anything. I really don't intend to remove mine, as it co-witnesses with my irons, so that's not really an issue.

I think the issue with moth red dot sights is the size of the dot. My Strikefire has about a 4 MOA dot. That means that at 200 yards the dot subtends 8 inches of the target, at 300 yards it subtends 12 inches, and so forth. So the limitation at long ranges is that the dot may actually hide what you're shooting at! Of course some are available with smaller dots - the Vortex Spark is 2 MOA as I recall. But honestly, when I look through my Strikefire, that 4 MOA dot is pretty small. What it comes down to is balancing the visibility of the dot versus precision. Nothing beats crosshairs - real crosshairs, not an optically-generated crosshair - for precision.

I think that a "holosight" like an Eotech has, as it's chief advantage, the "heads-up" effect of not looking through a tube. Add a magnifier behind an Eotech and it'll be pretty much the same view as an Aimpoint or other tube sight.

My Strikefire weighs only 0.1 ozs more than a true Aimpoint - On a 9 or 10 pound rifle I don't think you'll notice the difference. Heck, a lot of these M16's that people are lugging around have so much cr@p bolted on to them that they should be mounted on a gun carriage!
 
Swiss, if you like your 1-4X, stick with it.

Magnifiers are big, heavy, the glass sucks (relatively speaking) and the eye relief leaves a lot to be desired.

I can see adding a magnifier if you find yourself NEEDING that sort of rig, where you absolutely need the speed of a red dot, but can use the magnifier to extend your range of aimed fire when the need arises.

If you don't need the absolute speed of a red dot, then save yourself the weight, bulk and discomfort of using a magnifier.
 
Revisiting this, and plan to possibly make use of some father's day deals. Anyone have any brand recommendations in the $300.00 or less category?
 
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=608749

Cheap red dot thread^ with what works for many.

I think the issue with moth red dot sights is the size of the dot. My Strikefire has about a 4 MOA dot. That means that at 200 yards the dot subtends 8 inches of the target, at 300 yards it subtends 12 inches, and so forth. So the limitation at long ranges is that the dot may actually hide what you're shooting at! Of course some are available with smaller dots - the Vortex Spark is 2 MOA as I recall. But honestly, when I look through my Strikefire, that 4 MOA dot is pretty small. What it comes down to is balancing the visibility of the dot versus precision. Nothing beats crosshairs - real crosshairs, not an optically-generated crosshair - for precision.
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Personal experience with hunting and the Eotech, Airmpoint, Sparc and Strikefire to name a few that I own. Classifier, old guy with old eyes but can still see good enough to find a golf ball hidden in tall grass hit by a friend; if I want to!!

Red dots are used mostly at 100 yards or less; occasionally out to 125 as opportunity presents itself. A little 4 power scope (or others with more mag) out to 200. All my longer shots anticipated I try to use more magnified scopes even if the full magnification will not be used. I would rather have the extra magnification and not need it than run out of scope mag and pass on the shot. I am talking hunting and not paper punching. Scopes IMO are much better than a red dot past 100 yards if accuracy is your goal. If my eyesight was better I used to like iron sights so the red dots are great for old eyes or dusk/low light settings.

Now having said all the above we have some guys who do quite well with their red dots at all kinds of ranges but for me the above is my rule of thumb.
 
If you are looking to save weight, a 1-4x scope in a mount is going to weigh less then a RDS and a magnifier on a flip to side mount.

No ranges long enough here, but I know plenty of 3-gun shooters take the 1-4x out to 600 yards without any issues.
 
If you are looking to save weight, a 1-4x scope in a mount is going to weigh less then a RDS and a magnifier on a flip to side mount.

No ranges long enough here, but I know plenty of 3-gun shooters take the 1-4x out to 600 yards without any issues.
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Yep
 
The Burris TAC30 1-4x24 is probably your best bet in that price range. You can JUST get one for $300 with shipping if you shop for the best deals online.

There are also some Chinese scopes in your price range, like the Millet DMS/Primary Arms PA14x (which are the same) and the Leatherwood CMR, but based on my experience with cheap Chinese scopes, I would say buy those at your own risk.

I would say get the Burris. If you want a cheaper option, I would at least go with some good Japanese glass and get a Weaver 1-3x20.
 
Thanks very much for the replies, Sky and V. I'm pretty well set on getting a 1-4x, for the following reasons:

1. Commited to keeping this carbine light. Sounds like the 1-4x is a good choice there.

2. Want something that I can hunt with out to 200-300 yards, but that has the type of eye relief that will allow me to follow a loping, trotting target like a 'yote or bobcat as I call it in.

2a. Also want something that will allow me to crank up the magnification to reach out "view-wise" for spotting and occasional longer shots.

3. Want something with as few moving parts as possible to minimize the possibility of failure.

4. Leaning away from something that is battery powered, having just had a few equipment failures due to flat batteries recently. (This is fresh in my mind..haha!)
 
The Burris TAC30 1-4x24 is probably your best bet in that price range. You can JUST get one for $300 with shipping if you shop for the best deals online.

There are also some Chinese scopes in your price range, like the Millet DMS/Primary Arms PA14x (which are the same) and the Leatherwood CMR, but based on my experience with cheap Chinese scopes, I would say buy those at your own risk.

I would say get the Burris. If you want a cheaper option, I would at least go with some good Japanese glass and get a Weaver 1-3x20.
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Perfect... Thank you, sir!

I'll go check those out. The Burris is honestly what I was leaning towards, but I'm very open to other suggestions that might knock it out of top spot for me.
 
I like red dots, low power scopes and holosights like the Eotech. Each is a little different and each has different strong and weak points. What I don't care for is red dots or holosights with magnification. The ones I have looked through have all been too dark.

Most quick release type mounts or even Weaver/Swan/Picatinni style bases/mounts can maintain a close zero but maintaining a perfect zero is not common. You can improve the repeatability of the Weaver style by always doing a few things when you mount the sight. First, aways use the same location on the rail. Second, push the mount as far forward as it will travel while you tighten the mount. And last, always tighten the mount screws to the same torque each time.
 
Just watched the first one, Sky. Thanks! I also watched a subsequent vid, which after some range time, had him maintaining a positive review of it, even though he had issues with mounting it up.

(It wasn't the scopes fault, it seems like those with A2 front sights (like me) and a flattop have a bit of figuring to do, when mounting the sight.)
 
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I'd also consider the Leupold VX-R and the Vortex Viper series of scopes. If you are not afraid to shop around and look for deals, a Trijicon 1-4x or 1.25-4x could also be had for $500 range, plus these scope are battery free, although I dont much care for their reticles as they are very simplistic - which can be a plus or a minus depending on your shooting preferences.
 
2. Want something that I can hunt with out to 200-300 yards, but that has the type of eye relief that will allow me to follow a loping, trotting target like a 'yote or bobcat as I call it in.
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I would go with a Vortex Viper PST 1-4x24 or a Leupold VX-R 1.25-4x20. These are just over the specified budget but worth it IMHO. The optic quality is first rate. Both these have illumination and use a coin battery but you do not have to turn it on to use the scope. The Vortex has a better field of view for tracking your target.

I have a Nikon M223 1-4 and after using it for a year and a half I should have spent a little more and gone with either of the above scopes.

If you are 'calling in' varmints, that can be a challenging sport in it's self. Have you considered irons and a set of binoculars? That's how one of the best varmint callers I know hunts.
 
Well if you up the budget to around $500, I would also definitely say go with the Vortex Viper PST. But the OP said he wants to spend $300 or less. Within that price range, I would maintain that the Burris TAC30 would be the best bet.

I wouldn't even consider the Leatherwood CMR over the Burris. The Leatherwood costs more and is not as good of a scope. I should know since I have one... it broke after less than 100 rounds on my M1A. It didn't have very bright glass, and the eye relief and exit pupil were annoyingly unforgiving. Plus that type of scope doesn't need exposed target turrets... I found that they would sometimes "adjust themselves" while carrying or casing/uncasing the rifle. I will say I really like the reticle though... I wish somebody would use that reticle on some better quality glass. Oh well, the Leatherwood is getting sent back and I am going with either a Burris or a Vortex Viper, I haven't decided which.

That experience is why I say buy cheap Chinese scopes like Millett, Primary Arms, and Leatherwood at your own risk.
 
With Red Dot sights, be careful about the size of the dot. A 4 moa dot is going to obscure a small target at 100 yards by 4". I am partial to scopes for that reason.
 
Crazy idea: if the red dot is too big then how about mounting it farther forward. With a red dot eye relief isn't a problem and mounting it farther forward should reduce the perspective size of the dot. Right?
I'm going to have to try that.
 
IMHO about the only red dot really suitable to use with a magnifier is the EOTech because its central "dot" size is diffraction limited, the magnification doesn't enlarge it. Whereas a 2MOA dot becomes a 6MOA dot with 3X magnification. Would you buy a scope with a 6MOA dot as the reticle?
 
AR-Red Dots

I have used several different RDS's over the years and ended up trying a "Lucid HD7" a little over a year ago. I have had good luck with it and I carry it around in the trunk of a car every day in a pelican case. It has held its zero just fine. It has a screw on magnifier available up to 3x, so if you don't need it you can simply remove/add without a problem. It uses common AAA batteries and you can choose between 4 different reticles. It would be in your price range and I have been very happy with mine so far. Good Luck
 
I shoot my 3 gun rifle at 300 yards and no problem with the Burris 332. Three power with holdovers to 500 yards, although I haven't shot it that far yet, lighted reticle, and if you lose battery juice you still have a black reticle.

RRAATHUPPER1.jpg
 
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