Varminterror
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Your premise here is false. It’s been disproven time and time again both in simulation and real world statistics.
Recommend a lightweight AR15
- Thread starter EMT40SW
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Your premise here is false. It’s been disproven time and time again both in simulation and real world statistics.
Varminterror
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After the suggestion above to look into the WWSD abomination, I’ve been trying to compose a polite way of saying this, but haven’t found it, so I held my tongue. But this.
P Flados
Member
A standard AR with a 16" or 18" barrel in a pencil profile will drive the weight down a lot. A gun at this weight range should be ok for most any adult unless there is some special case. Before spending a bunch, I recommend hitting some local shops that have a variety of ARs and see if you can find something like the above.
A 14" with a permanently installed muzzle device will be a little lighter, but the shorter you go the more obnoxious the blast. At 14" and shorter, you are also getting to the point where the muzzle velocity of standard 223 / 5.56 ammo is getting lower than I consider to be optimum.
For home defense use, practice time is a big deal. A PCC in 9mm might be a better choice as it is more likely to get enough practice time. If the PCC is found to be acceptable and practice sessions become routine, moving "up" to a AR becomes a transition worth considering (with a nice fallback if it does not work out).
A 14" with a permanently installed muzzle device will be a little lighter, but the shorter you go the more obnoxious the blast. At 14" and shorter, you are also getting to the point where the muzzle velocity of standard 223 / 5.56 ammo is getting lower than I consider to be optimum.
For home defense use, practice time is a big deal. A PCC in 9mm might be a better choice as it is more likely to get enough practice time. If the PCC is found to be acceptable and practice sessions become routine, moving "up" to a AR becomes a transition worth considering (with a nice fallback if it does not work out).
chicharrones
needs more ammo
Looks to be 5.5 ounces for a 16" barrel. Keep the muzzle device off and shave the front sight for a few more ounces lost. Ought to make it feel less muzzle heavy.
Adding a red dot to the receiver to counter the loss of the front sight would add ounces back, but that weight will be between the hands.
Not a big deal to folks with decent arm strength. Might be a big deal to people like my 52 year old 5'1" wife who had good arm strength in her younger days, but that's not currently the case.
Styx
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If you go to BCM, Ballistic Advantage, Faxon, Bear Creek, KAK, Daniel Defense, etc and look at the weight difference between their stripped pencil and government profile barrels, the weight difference is only 3 to 5 ounces. It's typically only 3 ounces. You can go to each of those websites and look at the listed weights, so it's a real apples to apples comparison as the barrels are completely stripped with nothing attached.
For home defense and not for backpacking or firing hundreds of rounds at a time prolonged gun fight, it seems like overkill. If arm strength is a problem to the extent that 4 or so ounces is make or break then I'd suggest they go the pistol or some other route.
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The sling is used for more than carrying the rifle and should be one of the first things bought after mags and ammo.
A simple two point sling makes it a lot easier to keep it shouldered and steady for longer periods.
I'm a bigger guy and even an 8 lb rifle gets heavy in a hurry, I use the sling when shooting offhand, it's there, use it.
A simple two point sling makes it a lot easier to keep it shouldered and steady for longer periods.
I'm a bigger guy and even an 8 lb rifle gets heavy in a hurry, I use the sling when shooting offhand, it's there, use it.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
Makes me think of someone using a bullpup to get the weight closer to the body. Shorter overall while still keeping a 16" barrel for those not wanting an SBR or pistol AR.
Not saying these are the answer, just showing examples.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/kel-tec-rdb-defender-5-56-nato-16-20rd-rifle-tan-rdbdtan.html
https://palmettostatearmory.com/kel...-5-56-semi-automatic-ar-15-rifle-rdbsblk.html
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Varminterror
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We might be falling into the trap of trying to make the minimum “too minimum.” A “small statured woman” is sufficiently non-descript to potentially have VERY different meanings to different people, but I’m picturing a fully grown woman, 25-55yrs old, 110-130lbs, 5’-5’4”…
Smaller people than that shoot conventional M4-ish carbines every day. Avoid Hbars, maybe look preferentially for “light” or “pencil” contours, don’t pick heavy furniture, and don’t get anything longer than 16-18” with carbine gas, and you’ll do fine. As an example, my niece uses an 18” 6.5 Grendel to hunt deer, shooting her first when she was 6yrs old, dictated by her ability to be able to carry the rifle on her own and set up to make her shots. My son started shooting his 6.8 SPC AR, an 18”, when he was 5 - and HIS is an 18” middy with a DCM contour (Hbar-ish). Either would have been south of 50lbs when they started managing these rifles, and well south of 4ft.
Smaller people than that shoot conventional M4-ish carbines every day. Avoid Hbars, maybe look preferentially for “light” or “pencil” contours, don’t pick heavy furniture, and don’t get anything longer than 16-18” with carbine gas, and you’ll do fine. As an example, my niece uses an 18” 6.5 Grendel to hunt deer, shooting her first when she was 6yrs old, dictated by her ability to be able to carry the rifle on her own and set up to make her shots. My son started shooting his 6.8 SPC AR, an 18”, when he was 5 - and HIS is an 18” middy with a DCM contour (Hbar-ish). Either would have been south of 50lbs when they started managing these rifles, and well south of 4ft.
Buzznrose
Member
I understand both sides of this argument but I think, given the context of a small frame shooter in a home defense situation, I also think the handgun isn’t wrong. Biggest issue for me is retention. If defender had to move between rooms to secure loved ones, the possibility of a long gun being snatched is likely greater than a pistol held tightly at high ready.
Training with either platform would be important.
If defending from inside home to a rural area, then surely the rifle has the advantage. Even inside, a .223 has advantages like less penetration and more impact on target, but I still go back to the possibility of the attacker taking the gun away.
A 8” .300 BO pistol with brace would be a good choice…but until we get past this brace fiasco, I see the avoidance. a 16” carbine, maybe not the right choice.
Like I said before, if a long gun is the final answer, the specific flavor may be better supported by a non-AR style weapon. Ruger has some interesting options, and the Springfield Armory bull pup may be another option. At 8 lbs, it isn’t the lightest choice but weight is distributed differently and may be easiest to manage for a small frame shooter.
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Varminterror
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Take on some force on force training and your eyes open REALLY quickly. At arms length, “retention” for a “small statured woman” is a punch line. I trained with world level competitive female grapplers, strikers, and fighters in force on force on force a few times (and in grappling training for hundreds of hours), and even as a moderately skilled, completely out of shape male, 100% of the time I could prevent them from putting shots on mass and take the weapon.
Way too much delusion is pushed around in women’s self defense. We do what we can when we’re fighting for our life - we throw Hail Mary’s when we’re down in the 4th quarter and call them that because we pray for the best - but there is no physical equalizer. Systemic training stats and real world stats tell more truth than gunshop fantasies.
Way too much delusion is pushed around in women’s self defense. We do what we can when we’re fighting for our life - we throw Hail Mary’s when we’re down in the 4th quarter and call them that because we pray for the best - but there is no physical equalizer. Systemic training stats and real world stats tell more truth than gunshop fantasies.
Buzznrose
Member
The two sides of a fight will rarely be matched and I won’t argue against training lessons learned.
But realistically, a long gun like a AR or other rifle simply has more “safe” real estate (stock, receiver, barrel) for an aggressor to grab and manage the muzzle versus a 4” barrel handgun if defender is being cautious and defensive.
Either way, quality training is important to effective application. And a proper mindset will be critical to victory.
Varminterror
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Again, you are meaning to say “theoretically,” because “realistically,” crime stats simply do not support your theory.
Buzznrose
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Nope. Not referring to stats, I’m talking about the amount of space on the firearm that could be used to grab the weapon.
InTheSwamp
Member
Shall we keep it on topic?... Lightest AR for a small female to defend her home.
Pretty sure the OP has an idea, or two about basic geometry.
Pretty sure the OP has an idea, or two about basic geometry.
Varminterror
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It’s simpler than that:
Lightweight isn’t necessarily lightest. Not much sense in overcomplicating this. Unless she’s otherwise infirmed in some way, any common m4-ish rifle will be light enough for even a very small statured woman.
Sig MCX rattler. Small, light, 5.5" barrel and no buffer tube... but kind of pricey. You can buy a rattler upper / conversion kit and put it on a regular AR lower... still pricey though. Not having the buffer tube does make it shorter, lighter and more maneuverable than most other AR pistols. I, personally, would not want anything bigger for home defense. Is a regular pistol out of the question?
An M1 carbine might also be worth looking at, you could even put a reproduction paratrooper stock on it to make it quite short.
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I completely agree! Many others on this board don't though. I have walked from my safe to the truck with rifles in my hand (when I am going to the range) enough to know that a rifle isn't near as maneuverable as a pistol in hallways and around corners. I can pivot 180 and fire in a hallway much quicker with a handgun than with a rifle. No amount of arguing is going to change either of the opposing opinions minds so it isn't worth the effort to try.
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OP
OP
EMT40SW
Member
Budget is below $800 for rifle only & below 6 lb unloaded without an optic. This will be her first AR but she is only 5 foot, 110 lb, & 40 years old. I’m thinking of just using 20 round mags to further keep weight down. Thoughts?
Also for further clarification the shooter is a motivated novice shooter with a CCW permit that owns a .22 & .380 Ruger pistols. We went shooting & she was limp wristing the .380 causing jams. She shot my Shield 9, my M4 type AR, & a 20 ga youth stocked pump shotgun all fine. She is not recoil sensitive but she gravitated towards the AR. Also due to her size a youth stock or telescoping stock is mandatory. Therefore the WWSD from KY is out.
Thank you all for responses, sorry I didn’t get this info posted sooner. Work has been busy. Keep the great responses coming.
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Buzznrose
Member
I agree this isn’t complicated if a lightweight AR is the goal. Just don’t load it up with a lot of junk.
If I were the OP, I’d buy this:
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...ht-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle-w-mbus-sight-set3.html
I have way more expensive AR’s but I shoot my PSA the most and it just keeps going strong….
and I’d buy this for range time training:
https://palmettostatearmory.com/cmmg-22arc-bravo-22lr-conversion-kit-22ba651.html
and this optic:
https://www.amazon.com/Swampfox-Liberator-Green-Circle-Sight/dp/B07VZ2WBQC/ref=mp_s_a_1_7_sspa?crid=11VXKBPD6N2H2&keywords=swampfox+optics&qid=1686136238&sprefix=swampfox,aps,120&sr=8-7-spons&psc=1&smid=A2W18YCMV1AU0W&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyVENPSUQwTExUNjgwJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNTc5NDUxQTdHWTRXWlJCWThYJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAzMTgyMzBBTkFMRVVWWU9XM1Imd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9waG9uZV9zZWFyY2hfbXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
while I do not have this specific optic, I have many Swampfox red dot sights and they are all solid. One has thousands of rounds on a G43X subcompact 9MM and has not lost zero yet.
and I’d put a simple white light on it…
and if this is a home defense gun, I’d put a sling on it.
All for around the $800 budget excluding the .22 conversion kit which will pay for itself over time (mine has seen thousands of rounds and saved $0.20 per shot!
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redneck2
Member
There are guys here way more experienced than me, but I worked to the LGS with an indoor range. I’d say the average new pistol shooter couldn’t hit a five gallon bucket at twenty feet, particularly under stress.
I had a guy come in that owned a truck stop in Gary, IN. He was getting legitimate death threats. His biggest concern was leaving work and driving home. He came in looking at pistols, but was unwilling to put in the time to learn to use one effectively. He ended up with a short double barrel 12 gauge with #4 buck. Were I pursuing someone and they pointed a double barrel 12 gauge in my direction, I’d be inclined to rethink my life’s choices. Same thing with a rifle vs. pistol. Perhaps the adage “use the pistol to fight your way to a rifle “ applies
My wife is 71, about 5’ tall. Her SD is an AR with a red dot. Flip off the safety and pull the trigger until the threat is neutralized or the noise stops.
As for weight, it’s just a plain PSA carbine. She handles it fine. I tried to not overthink it. Many times good enough is good enough
I had a guy come in that owned a truck stop in Gary, IN. He was getting legitimate death threats. His biggest concern was leaving work and driving home. He came in looking at pistols, but was unwilling to put in the time to learn to use one effectively. He ended up with a short double barrel 12 gauge with #4 buck. Were I pursuing someone and they pointed a double barrel 12 gauge in my direction, I’d be inclined to rethink my life’s choices. Same thing with a rifle vs. pistol. Perhaps the adage “use the pistol to fight your way to a rifle “ applies
My wife is 71, about 5’ tall. Her SD is an AR with a red dot. Flip off the safety and pull the trigger until the threat is neutralized or the noise stops.
As for weight, it’s just a plain PSA carbine. She handles it fine. I tried to not overthink it. Many times good enough is good enough
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I don't know about simulations or statistics. I based my opinion on what I've seen in my line of work involving events that transpired in an urban/apartment setting.
Still, confining the discussion to the OP's original question ... it's easy to equate light to easy handling. I'm a pretty small guy and don't have a lot of body mass. When I shoot, I have to be mindful to employ recoil management techniques. I'm not recoil sensitive, but recoil certainly plays a larger part in how quickly and accurately I can shoot. I do not necessarily shoot and move more quickly with a lighter rifle.
To an extent, I shoot better with a rifle with some weight to it. The point I'm trying to get to is that a rifle that is quick handling and feels light, doesn't necessarily need to BE light. I assembled my last couple of uppers using criterion core barrels. The barrels in conjunction with lightweight handguards and lightish optics that put the weight in the center of the rifle make the rifle "feel" and handle like a lighter rifle while still having enough heft to help with recoil.
The 2 rigs that I use the most are topped with ACOGs with piggyback red dots and a light and they come in at about 8.5 lbs, give or take a bit, and many comment on how light they "feel."
Varminterror
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One critical point of using statistics of real world crime and self defense data is to identify when an individual’s limited observations occur because they are limited, or because they are a true trend.
In your case, the former.
We all want to think retention is better for handguns than long guns because attackers SHOULD have less opportunity to gain control of the firearm, but in real world conflicts, this does not play out for small statured women against more powerful attackers, especially those insufficiently trained and insufficiently practiced.
I have to venture that tens of thousands of small statured women are handling common AR carbines every day. They’re not so heavy, and for most folks finding a 7lb AR too heavy (lack of training and lack of familiarity, or legitimate disability), cutting it down to 5.5lbs really won’t make a substantial shift.
Also of note in this discussion - women tend to be smarter at managing men than men give them credit. “It’s too heavy, I’m not comfortable” is a very common, polite way a woman will tell a man “I don’t want to do this,” without the consequence of the male retort, “but you have to, because it might save your life,” where they get stuck still doing the thing they didn’t want to do. We’ve all seen the videos or maybe experienced in person young kids, even young girls, and small statured women running and gunning with AR’s, even small women running around with 20lb PRS rifles… more often than not, “the gun is too big” or “it’s too heavy” is a means to say “I don’t want to do this, don’t make me,” but without eliciting conflict.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
My thoughts are that if the less than 6 pound goal is required, you will have to keep on the look out for sales or increase your budget.
So here's another thought. Do you think your wife collapses the stock of your M4 clone due to the length of her arms or due to the balance of the gun?
If it's a balance situation that helps make the gun feel lighter by getting the gun closer to her body, then perhaps a non AR type gun with a magazine in the grip well would be a possible solution. But that leads into pistol caliber carbines like a 5.1 pound S&W FPC* which retails for $660.00 or a 5.7 pound Beretta CX4 that I can find new locally for $798.00.
I mentioned my wife's size and age earlier. 5'1", 52 years old, and she hasn't exercised rigorously in over 7 years. I love her, but she's become a softie compared to her younger self. Yet, she can hold and shoot my CX4 well even though the shortest LOP on that gun is 13.25". That little gun just balances closer to the body than an AR with the LOP set the same. And speaking of pencil barrels, the 9mm barrel on the CX4 looks as thin walled as a shotgun barrel.
*Edit to add: This notation of balance of the FPC at another forum is interesting. Scroll down to the 3rd PCC.
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/threads/pistol-caliber-carbines-just-for-fun.1278260/#post-13073539
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