Refuse To Sell?

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lizziedog1

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While this question is aimed mainly at any FFL holders, I guess anyone with knowledge of the subject can answer.

Can a gun dealer refuse a gun sale to someone just because something about the person doesn't seem right? The person would pass any background check, but the person gives the dealer the willies.

This is going to perhaps be a bit silly, but what if person has some sort of physical ailment that might make gun ownership a danger? Like blindness or Parkinsons?

I pray for some slack from the moderators for this.
 
Absolutely a gun dealer can refuse to make any sale for whatever reason.

As for refusing to sell to a blind person? That's an odd one, but short of a civil-rights lawsuit there would be no way to fight the decision, and I don't see that getting much traction.
 
It would seem that a blind person walking into a gun store and trying to buy a gun would be pretty strong evidence of a "straw sale" in that someone else would be the obvious intended user. Unless it was a collectible that wasn't meant to be shot.
 
blind people have a right to self-defense, too.

I think a blind rape victim will be able to figure out where to put the muzzle, don't you?
 
blind people have a right to self-defense, too.

I think a blind rape victim will be able to figure out where to put the muzzle, don't you?
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Yes. However, if a dealer decided that the sale was not on the level (straw purchase perhaps) or even if they were simply of the opinion that the person would create a danger that they didn't want on their consciences, what could the prospective blind purchaser do about that refusal?

They can certainly go to another gun store and try there, but do they have any legal recourse? I don't believe so.
 
i used to have an ffl and when the feds came to my house, they indicated that if any qualified buyer wanted to purchase, it was still my call as to whether or not i wanted to sell any gun to anyone. :eek:
 
Jonah71 said:
I think the owner of a business should have the right to refuse a sale or service of any kind....with or without an explaination. After all, it's HIS business and he's the one paying the bills.
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As a general rule, a person can refuse for a good reason, a bad, or no reason whatsoever. Just so long as it is not an illegal reason (e.g., race, gender, etc.)
 
As a general rule, a person can refuse for a good reason, a bad, or no reason whatsoever. Just so long as it is not an illegal reason (e.g., race, gender, etc.)
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Agreed. What you have here is confliction of various laws. The BATF does allow you to refuse the sale of a gun to any person for whatever reason.

However, other laws expressly forbid you refusing service to people based on things like race, religion, gender, etc. The issue with the blind man does become interesting because disability is one of those things that you also can't discriminate against.

In the end, given that the law would be conflicted in such cases, it would only really matter if the purchasing party wanted to take it to court, at which case some common sense would be applied. Could go either way depending on the judge/jury that you get at that point.
 
A sign saying "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" used to be code in the Jim Crow South that the place was segregated. The Public Accommodations provisions of the Civil Rights Act of '64 were enacted to outlaw this. The Americans With Disabilities Act extended similar protection to the disabled.

Suppose an overt racist, now, opened a gun shop and, as a matter of policy, refused to sell to blacks. I suppose you could argue that a gun shop was not a "public accommodation." Still, as broad as the Civil Rights Act is, I doubt that you could just ignore it.

Let's say that a group of black people, otherwise qualified gun buyers, decided to make a test case of this racist gun shop. Frankly, this would give (some) liberals a fit. On the one hand, they'd be against any form of racism. On the other, they wouldn't want anyone to have guns, so they would tend to support any blanket refusal to sell. Interesting conundrum...
 
I don't know if it's true, but a FFL dealer I once knew told me he refused to sell a gun to a man who wanted to buy one bullet with it.......
 
I knew a gun dealer (dead for several years) who would not sell hand guns or ammo to young black men if they looked at all like potential gang bangers. He was within walking distiance of public housing that was crime ridden and he did not want to contribute to the problems in any way. If a steriotypical gangster came in with his shorts showing and his hat on sideways and asked for a box of "nines" he just told them that he was out.
 
I have never not sold a gun to somebody who passed the background check but...

I have asked for ID before showing somebody a gun, asked "why", and given them the obvious "once over". I have told people that I thought it would be better if they left because of their behavior. NONE have argued with me.

We have sold to nearly blind, all races, resident aliens, various genders (use your imagination), etc. In making a sale the way we do one does get a chance to get some sort of feel for the customer. It is NOT like we're simply running a Walmart cash register. My boss told me that I did not have to deal with anyone I did not want to deal with. This business is like liquor sales, you actually have a vested interest in NOT selling to people who display odd behavior of some sort.
 
Sale to blind person

There is a potential equal protection problem here, akin to refusing to serve or make reasonable accomidation for the disabled. 14th Amm, Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), and state and local equal protection statutes could apply.
A blind person certainly can buy a car - just has to have someone else actually drive it because it would be inheritly dangerous to do otherwise. It is the conduct not the sale at issue. So I would likely make the sale unless there is real articulable suspicion a straw man sale is what is really afoot. Could be a collector, could intend to have someone help them make a shot in a safe manner just for the hell of it.
Obvious psychiatric or substance abuse issues - don't do it. You'll be safe. Take some notes and tuck them away with as much of the gent's info you did get before declining to go through with the sale, just in case. Make a clear, reasonable explaination if confronted with some accusation of discrimination and it should go away.
Other situations...what if you later ran into this guy late at night, and he approached, ...? If you think you will remember exactly what you sold him your gut is telling you something. We good guys don't mind less guns - in the hands of questionable folks.
 
I don't know if it's true, but a FFL dealer I once knew told me he refused to sell a gun to a man who wanted to buy one bullet with it.......
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That has the sound of something he made up for dramatic effect. People about to die typically aren't worried about wasting money regarding quantity. IF the story was true then I'd say it was more a cry for help (ie, be obvious about it so that someone takes notice and intervenes) rather than an actual plan.
 
RE: sale to a blind person.........

Just like everyone else a blind person would be required to complete a 4473 and pass NICS when purchasing a firearm.

From the instructions in the Form 4473:

"...If a buyer is unable to read and/or write, the answers (other than the signature) may be completed by another person, excluding the seller. Two persons (other than the seller) must then sign as witnesses to the buyers answers and signature...."

If you are a one or two man shop you may not be able to complete the sale.

Now for another sermonette:
I'm an Adapted Physical Education Specialist and have several students with visual impairments on my caseload. "Blind" isn't a very accurate term to describe most of my students and only a couple have 100% vision loss. The others visual abilities are all over the place: some have little or no depth perception, some no peripheral vision, some have dificulty tracking moving objects. They play and enjoy the same activities as all other kids: baseball, soccer, goalball, ice skating, martial arts, ride bikes, wrestle, etc.

Sometimes we see the problems and not the possibilities....a "blind man" buying a gun may be doing so for any number of reasons.......it isn't rude to ask "why are you buying this particular gun?" it may be for a gift, for self protection, or even for shooting it himself.......even a blind man can enjoy the recoil, the smell of burnt powder and with appropriate supervision and coaching hitting the target.
 
Here's one for you, say you have a person who is 'completely blind'
which blind is it? You can have a person with zero visual acuity, but if you face them with a light to your back, they can easily discern your silhouette.

Secondly, the discrimination clause only comes in when your discriminating against someone, BUT there is the soft one, ask my wife, she's disabled, and she has been turned down for jobs for being 'over qualified' not having 'available transportation' etc.

In sales I can refuse a sale to anyone, but if I tell them why, then... you open yourself up.
If you leave it at NO, there isn't much to challenge.
 
Hey bartenders can refuse to serve you a drink...why shouldn't a gun store owner be able to deny a purchase?
 
Using the blind/Parkinson's example... I once sold a bolt-action rifle to a one-handed man.


... Mind you, as soon as I said "Uh. The bolt-action?" he was quick to explain "Birthday gift for my boy."

Works for me!
 
I'm surprised they don't have special provisions for disabled people to purchase firearms. To make it easier than for a nondisabled person. I just love going to a business establishment and you can't find a park except in the back and as you are close to walking in a car comes whipping in to a handicap park right on front of the door and a "legally blind" person hops out and strolls right in. So they can drive all over the place but are so disabled they need to park in the front???
 
When there are thousands upon thousands of gun dealers across the country, why would anyone want to push the issue with a single shop. Private business they can sell or not sell to whom they please.

Why is it that people feel the need to force other people to do things.

Just go somewhere else.
 
I have been in a gun shop where I witnessed the staff refuse to sell a gun on three separate occasions: (1) potential buyer obviously drunk, (2) potential buyer extremely agitated, and (3) store staffer thought potential buyer was trying to do a "straw" purchase. I'm glad these three resolved the way they did.
 
I knew a gun dealer (dead for several years) who would not sell hand guns or ammo to young black men if they looked at all like potential gang bangers.
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I wonder if any young black men who happened to be wearing the prevailing fashion in the neighborhood (or members of their families) died because they couldn't defend themselves from real gang-bangers who didn't mind getting their guns illegally.

I'm just sayin'.
 
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