Reloading .223 with pistol-powder for a short-barreled 5.56?

[BullHeadedGideon]

Hello guys & gals.

So... disclaimer - I know juuuuuuust about nothing about reloading so far =D; so don't be too critical lol.

But I see a big drawback to short-barreled .223/5.56 AR pistols being the noise & fireball that comes out of the barrel.

Could you remedy this by reloading .223 with pistol powder?

I've read that the reason you don't get much noise & fireball with 300 Blackout is because it's loaded with pistol powder. Could you get the same thing with .223?

Is this possible, or do I just not know enough about reloading?

If it IS possible, is there more to it? i.e. pistol primers vs rifle primers, etc?

All responses are genuinely much appreciated.

Bull.

 

[Demi-human]

It is possible, and you are on the right train of thought for noise and flash.

And I also strongly caution against it!

It is not for the beginning hand loader!

It is Handloading 607. You say you’re still in orientation, walking around with a map of campus.

Pistol powders in a rifle are a great way to wreck your day!
Bolt-to-face is a thing. A bad thing!
It won’t banana the barrel, it will grenade the action into pretty slivers.
In front of your face.

Primers have nothing to do with it.



Now...
Yes. Faster powders can have less blast at the muzzle since the powder hits peak pressure quickly, burns up, and is a lower pressure at bullet exit, than slower powders.
Because the pressure curve is of less duration, the bullet does not reach as high of a speed, even though maximum chamber pressure was achieved.

In addition, gun powder is not a linear equation, it’s exponential. Once near the top, fast powders can become erratic and spike pressure. Small irregularities become over pressure events, sticky bolts become blown Caseheads.

...Or worse.


Shoot, and Load, Safely out there!
(That means “by the manual”.)

 

[bluetopper]

Yes but it wouldn't cycle the action, not enough gas pressure for a long enough time. In a single shot it would be fine. But you wouldn't know how much powder to use.

 

[Lennyjoe]

My AR pistol with an 8” barrel doesn’t throw much of a flash with my H-335 powder loads. Not enough to distract me.

 

[2ndtimer]

The .223/5.56 AR needs a sufficient amount of gas for the action to cycle, regardless of barrel length. Trying to run one with pistol powder would probably turn it into a single shot. The .300 BO has a much higher expansion ratio (larger bore similar case capacity)and shoots much heavier bullets and probably has a gas port to enable it to run with magnum pistol powders. Again, nobody is going to run one using bullseye or unique in either chambering. If you want to reduce muzzle blast, use a suppressor or go with a longer barrel. Or build a 9mm AR pistol.

 

[Charlie98]

But I see a big drawback to short-barreled .223/5.56 AR pistols being the noise & fireball that comes out of the barrel.

That's all???

 

[Random 8]

Yeah, the AR-15 system is designed to run within a relatively narrow range of internal ballistics. Any pistol powder load likely will not cycle it, with the possible exception of some really slow magnum pistol powders such as H110, MP300, etc, for which I can find no data and do not recommend. I did find a trail boss load for the 55 grain FMJ in Hodgdon's published data. I highly doubt this would cycle an AR without extreme modification, but would make a fun, and probably subsonic bolt action load.

You CAN improve your odds of lower flash, by looking to powders in the faster burning range of rifle powders. These will have lower max charges per velocity/bullet weight. Hodgedon Benchmark comes to mind. You'll find burning rate charts by a cursory google search, or in a reputable loading manual USE FOR GUIDANCE ONLY, NOT FOR ANY INTERPOLATION OF LOADS. Some powders are also advertised as having flash suppressing properties. Comparing velocity data for short barreled "contender" loads with rifle data or having someone do a "quickload" run for you can also shed some insight into efficiency of a given powder in shorter barrels.

 

[entropy]

So... disclaimer - I know juuuuuuust about nothing about reloading so far =D; so don't be too critical lol.

As has been pointed out, this question is above your current pay grade.

I've read that the reason you don't get much noise & fireball with 300 Blackout is because it's loaded with pistol powder.

Where are you reading that? There are a few subsonic loads listed with Trail Boss, but while some think of Trail Boss as a pistol powder. it is similar to Unique in that it has applications for pistol, rifle, and shotgun.

 

[Grumulkin]

1. Reloading a rifle cartridge with pistol powder is not something a beginner in reloading should try.

2. Semiauto pistols cycle with pistol powders so why should an AR-15 action be different? I suspect to cycle, an AR-15 would need loads with one of the slower pistol powders, heavier bullets than usual and a different buffer spring. For the heavier bullets, it would probably need a 1:7 twist barrel for accuracy to be acceptable.

3. I think a big fireball coming out of the barrel would be cool (LOL).

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Like said, not a good idea. The .223/5.56mm is a rifle cartridge and operates at much higher pressures than pistol powders will safely generate while producing the volume of gas necessary to operate the gas system properly.

 

[243winxb]

IMR 4198, was ok in my 14.5" bbl M16, with 55 gr bullets. (not a pistol powder) But a fast rifle powder, with load data at hodgdon.

 

[bluetopper]

I don't know about you but I use ear muffs when I shoot.

 

[entropy]

Semiauto pistols cycle with pistol powders so why should an AR-15 action be different?

Mass differences and spring differences come to mind, and then there is the amount of energy needed to overcome the various methods of breechlocking (cam pin). Let me reverse the question; Semi auto rifles work with IMR4198, why not load up some .45 ACP rounds with it?

Also, there are very few direct impingement semi-auto pistols, The Steyr GB and Desert Eagle are the two I can think of.

 

[243winxb]

The ar15 and M16s need to have the correct port pressure to work the action. Gas operated guns. Some may not function with IMR 4198 & 40 gr bullets. The bullet exits the barrel to fast, producing low, short port pressure.

There are so many makes of ARs now and not all use the same size hole or location for the gas port. An adjustable gas block may help?

 

[748]

I use pistol powder in a rifle.
The charge and muzzle velocity are both greatly reduced.
I would load 124gr AK bullets in my 30-30 over about 9gr of unique for blasting ground hogs.
But that's a lever gun, not a gas operated anything.

 

[AJC1]

1. Your experience level is learning to setup and properly operate your new gear focused on quality control and saftey.
2. There are no powders that are for one application only but burn rates and unique pressure profiles that in most cases work best in certain applications. There are rule bender powders out like trail boss unique and 2400 along with a few others.
3. Your application has more requirements due to being semi auto and having a gas system. This is arguably one of the last stops on the learning train. Pick a straight walked cartridge and get some lever time building quality safe ammunition, and shelf this project for a later time.

 

[BullHeadedGideon]

Where are you reading that? There are a few subsonic loads listed with Trail Boss, but while some think of Trail Boss as a pistol powder. it is similar to Unique in that it has applications for pistol, rifle, and shotgun.

I don't remember. It's been a long time since I was researching that round.
I've also shot a 16" .223 in the same session as a 10.5" 300blk (110 gr & 220 gr) & definitely noticed quieter shots along with no fire out of the 300. Which is another reason why I believed it. I guess it just made sense to me in theory.

 

[Blue68f100]

Like 243Winxb said. AR's port size is determined based on pressure and location. As the barrel length shortens the gas port gets smaller, higher pressure, Normally it takes ~5" of barrel length past the gas port for reliable operations. When you get to short pistol barrels there are all kinds of things that are done to make them function reliably, lighter BCG, lighter springs..... Besides that the powder you use can and does effect how a AR will run. It's all about the pressure at the port and the dwell time it has to work with. Unless you have pressure test equipment it's best to stick with published data.

 

[Typetwelve]

2. Semiauto pistols cycle with pistol powders so why should an AR-15 action be different? I suspect to cycle, an AR-15 would need loads with one of the slower pistol powders, heavier bullets than usual and a different buffer spring. For the heavier bullets, it would probably need a 1:7 twist barrel for accuracy to be acceptable.

Someone may have already mentioned this, but the way a semi auto pistol and an AR uses gas to cycle the bolt is completely different.

AR pistols are tricky if you don't know what you're doing. I have a 7.5" and I'll say getting it tuned to run reliably was no small task. Once I did, the muzzle flash and report was no joke. A Smith Vortex removed nearly all of that flash...but the sound is insane. I try to warn others around me at the range as I typically wear double hearing protection when shooting it. BTW...no silencers here in Illinois...

IF I don't just go to a 300 BLK, I may try my hand at reloading ammo for it with projectiles that are more happy to perform at lower speeds, like I understand the Sierra Gameking to be.

 

[SlowFuse]

I don't remember. It's been a long time since I was researching that round.
I've also shot a 16" .223 in the same session as a 10.5" 300blk (110 gr & 220 gr) & definitely noticed quieter shots along with no fire out of the 300. Which is another reason why I believed it. I guess it just made sense to me in theory.

Regarding pistol powders in 300 BO, it's true these are loaded with some Magnum pistol powders.

Most of these powders are approaching similar burn rates of the fastest rifle powders. Ive seen data for this cartridge using Win 296, H110, Lil'Gun, IMR 4227 etc. which many consider suitable magnum pistol powders. However I have never seen published data for 223/5.56 using any type of pistol powder, nor do I think you will you see any of the medium-ish burn rate pistol powders like HP38, Accurate #5, CFE pistol etc. in any sort of data for either of these cartridges.

There's unpublished data/research out there where people have tested powders like Unique, Blue Dot etc with 223 to get subsonic or "gallery" loads, but this is what I would consider pretty high level reloading. Not for beginners. Something else to look into, some powders advertise they are low flash, or use some sort of flash suppressant like BE86 (pistol powder, not recommended for this subject). Not sure if there are any low flash rifle specific powders but i've heard Vihtavuori powders are low flash. Never used any of that brand so I cant comment there.

 

[Typetwelve]

Regarding pistol powders in 300 BO, it's true these are loaded with some Magnum pistol powders.

Yup...Hodgdon uses H110 in many loads, Alliant, 2400.

 

[entropy]

I use pistol powder in a rifle.
The charge and muzzle velocity are both greatly reduced.
I would load 124gr AK bullets in my 30-30 over about 9gr of unique for blasting ground hogs.
But that's a lever gun, not a gas operated anything.

As mentioned Unique is not primarily a pistol powder. It, before the introduction of Trail Boss, was unique in that it had applications for rifle, pistol, and shotgun. I've used it for all three.

 

[Engineer1911]

I have loaded fired several thousand rounds of 223 for either a Thompson Center Contender or XP-100 for shooting prairie dogs. I found that Accurate Arms 2015 powder gave excellent accuracy with minimal muzzle blast or flash. It was not a quiet load, but there was no huge fire ball that blotted out the landscape. I was shooting 50 grain bullets with just above minimum powder charge.

I shot the same load on occasion in my AR-15 rifles without any problems. I shot all my AR 15 ammo, but still had handgun ammo left on a couple of prairie dog hunts. Enough ammo is far more important than "more gun".

 

[Varminterror]

Semiauto pistols cycle with pistol powders so why should an AR-15 action be different?

If this is an honest question, then this isn’t the place for it to be asked - if trolling, then this is irresponsibly dangerous when responding to a new reloader.

What is within the functional design of a short-recoil design pistol, at relatively MUCH lower operating pressures is NOT also within the functional design of a gas driven, rotating bolt design rifle, operating at relatively MUCH higher pressures. Suggesting a correlation there is an invitation to injury.

Faster powders may produce lower blast and flash in a short barrel, also sacrificing bullet speed as well, however, “faster” is a relative term. There’s a big difference between the speed of a sports car and the speed of a bullet - equally, there’s a big difference between a fast rifle powder and a slow pistol powder. We see an entire bridge of “revolver” powders, like H110, between rifle and semi-auto pistol powders which simply aren’t useful in short recoil pistol cartridges.

 

[jmorris]

But I see a big drawback to short-barreled .223/5.56 AR pistols being the noise & fireball that comes out of the barrel.

Could you remedy this by reloading .223 with pistol powder?

I've read that the reason you don't get much noise & fireball with 300 Blackout is because it's loaded with pistol powder. Could you get the same thing with .223?

Sure and if you wanted to do it safely, you will have a single shot AR pistol. Maybe get a custom mold and cast some really heavy bullets.

The 300 uses heavier bullets as do rounds like the 450, 458 that utilize some slower pistol powders, they can even function as well.

You just need enough gas there to cycle the BCG, it can be accomplished in a number of ways though.

Semiauto pistols cycle with pistol powders so why should an AR-15 action be different?

Generally, “Rifle” caliber AR’s are gas operated, “Pistol” caliber AR’s and other pistol caliber pistols are not. In other words the actions themselves are different, thus the difference.