Reloading 6.5x 257bob for arisaka

[Stevenvalleyky]

Hello, Im completely new here and only semi experienced with handloading. One of my fondest memories was 30 something years ago standing in the garage helping my papaw reload. About 15 years ago I started reloading 45 acp but nothing else. Lost ALL reloading equipment in a divorce. Have recently started again with .40 s&w, .308 and .243. Grandfather passed recently and left me an old but kinda rare Type 38 calvary carbine. It was rechambered in 6.5 x.257roberts. I have not shot the rifle and did not get to discuss it with him before he passed away. I do have 2 boxes of his reloads for it with the recipe clearly marked on the box. These were reloaded in 1984. I was not able to find any of his reloading equipment except an old spatan press. Really wanted the dies.
Do I need to buy 1)a custom set of dies 2) a set of 257 roberts dies and a set of 6.5 jap dies or 3) can I use a set of 257 dies with a .264 seating die? Any help is appreciated as I really want to shoot this old gun. Thanks for letting me join the forums and hopefully learn a ton. Steve

 

[horsey300]

Hello, Im completely new here and only semi experienced with handloading. One of my fondest memories was 30 something years ago standing in the garage helping my papaw reload. About 15 years ago I started reloading 45 acp but nothing else. Lost ALL reloading equipment in a divorce. Have recently started again with .40 s&w, .308 and .243. Grandfather passed recently and left me an old but kinda rare Type 38 calvary carbine. It was rechambered in 6.5 x.257roberts. I have not shot the rifle and did not get to discuss it with him before he passed away. I do have 2 boxes of his reloads for it with the recipe clearly marked on the box. These were reloaded in 1984. I was not able to find any of his reloading equipment except an old spatan press. Really wanted the dies.
Do I need to buy 1)a custom set of dies 2) a set of 257 roberts dies and a set of 6.5 jap dies or 3) can I use a set of 257 dies with a .264 seating die? Any help is appreciated as I really want to shoot this old gun. Thanks for letting me join the forums and hopefully learn a ton. Steve

I think that you might be better off custom, check out Lee custom die shop, they will set you up. I've never loaded this one, so this is speculation based on other forming procedures and I'm sure someone who's done something similar will pipe up but alternatively (and I still recommend Lee first) you could get a 6.5 neck sizing die and put it in the .257 case, using a 6.5 seating die as well, if you try shoving a 6.5 bullet into a .257 case without necking UP you will have problems IMHO. Eventually you will have to full length size or get new brass anyway thus my suggestion for the custom set.

ETA, take an empty .257 case neck by hand and try to fit it into the .243 neck and you'll see why you should neck up very quickly welcome to the forum, there's lots of great folks on here and quite a few have knowledge worth gathering, they'll either verify my input or point you in a better direction, good luck and enjoy!

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

I know there were gobs of these rifles converted to this cartridge. Im sure there are still plenty being used.

 

[BrocLuno]

A lot of these rifles were reamed to 257 case dimensions t get rid of the sloppy military chambers (made to load muddy, wet, dirty ammo, etc.). But you'll want to check the bore. 6.5mm =>.264. So try to push a 264 bullet into the muzzle and see how it goes? Remember these rifles have a modified Metford style rifling, so they will show less dramatic lands and grooves that say modern cut rifling.

" Wiki - Japanese Type 38 Arisaka rifles brought to the United States as wartime souvenirs were sometimes converted by rechambering to utilize more readily available .257 Roberts cartridge cases because commercially produced 6.5×50mm Arisaka cartridges were scarce prior to distribution by Norma Projektilfabrik A/S. The neck of the Roberts case would be slightly enlarged to accept handloaded 6.5 mm bullets. The modified Roberts cases are sometimes known as 6.5×.257 Roberts, although the case headstamp may still indicate .257 Roberts.[6] Neither unmodified .257 Roberts ammunition nor the original 6.5×50mm Arisaka ammunition are suitable for firing in rechambered Arisaka rifles. "

Lee will make you a set of custom dies (and so will RCBS). But I'd be inclined to look for a used set of 257 Roberts dies on eBay. Then buy a 6.5mm neck expander and seating die (also used). Maybe even make a chamber cast with Cero-Safe from Miday (they have the instructions on their web site). That will give you the COL you'll need to get the bullet close to the rifling (say 0.030") and go from there. 257 Roberts starting loads should be safe

 

[RPRNY]

Are we not overthinking this? Am I missing something?

6.5x257 Roberts is simply 6.5x57. Sellier & Bellow sell CIP loaded ammunition and Hornady and RCBS (probably others) make 6.5x57 dies (on sale at Natchez below). 7x57 and 8x57 brass can both be formed to 6.5x57 with a 6.5x57 FL sizing die, though 8x57 may require and intermediate neck sizing and potentially neck reaming at the end.

S&B loaded ammo:

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produ...65x57-mauser-sellier-and-bellot-131gr-sp-ammo

RWS sells 6.5x57 headstamped brass (more expensive than loaded S&B ammo):

http://www.huntingtons.com/store/product.php?productid=20192

Dies on sale:

https://www.natchezss.com/rflds-6-5x57.html

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

A lot of these rifles were reamed to 257 case dimensions t get rid of the sloppy military chambers (made to load muddy, wet, dirty ammo, etc.). But you'll want to check the bore. 6.5mm =>.264. So try to push a 264 bullet into the muzzle and see how it goes? Remember these rifles have a modified Metford style rifling, so they will show less dramatic lands and grooves that say modern cut rifling.

" Wiki - Japanese Type 38 Arisaka rifles brought to the United States as wartime souvenirs were sometimes converted by rechambering to utilize more readily available .257 Roberts cartridge cases because commercially produced 6.5×50mm Arisaka cartridges were scarce prior to distribution by Norma Projektilfabrik A/S. The neck of the Roberts case would be slightly enlarged to accept handloaded 6.5 mm bullets. The modified Roberts cases are sometimes known as 6.5×.257 Roberts, although the case headstamp may still indicate .257 Roberts.[6] Neither unmodified .257 Roberts ammunition nor the original 6.5×50mm Arisaka ammunition are suitable for firing in rechambered Arisaka rifles. "

Lee will make you a set of custom dies (and so will RCBS). But I'd be inclined to look for a used set of 257 Roberts dies on eBay. Then buy a 6.5mm neck expander and seating die (also used). Maybe even make a chamber cast with Cero-Safe from Miday (they have the instructions on their web site). That will give you the COL you'll need to get the bullet close to the rifling (say 0.030") and go from there. 257 Roberts starting loads should be safe

Since I have several rounds my grandfather used in this rifle, could I just measure thise, maybe smoke a bullet and use that to set OAL? There appears to be a little more room to bring the bullets closer to the lands before the rounds I have are too long to fit in the mag. I will look into the cero-safe but was hoping I could avoid that since I already have some safe reloads.

 

[horsey300]

Since I have several rounds my grandfather used in this rifle, could I just measure thise, maybe smoke a bullet and use that to set OAL? There appears to be a little more room to bring the bullets closer to the lands before the rounds I have are too long to fit in the mag. I will look into the cero-safe but was hoping I could avoid that since I already have some safe reloads.

You could put the loaded round into a seater die and screw it down to touching and start there, though if you change bullets from what he used, you'll want to record lengths you know to work well, then back that die off just a bit and work the new one down to your safe coal. Adjust charge weights according to bullet weight and also, with his recipes, be careful with those, your powder lot might be hotter than his and if he didn't specify min or Max you'll really have to watch case capacity.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

Thanks for the suggestions. Here is a pic of the boxes of loads I already have.

 

[horsey300]

That recipe doesn't specify if he was using imr or hodgdon, for a 100 gr I would suspect but have no way to KNOW that he used imr. If it was imr, that's a milder load so not a bad place to start, but again, I REALLY have no idea what is in those and if you don't either then you may want to consider making some recipes of your own. You should be able to cautiously use a 6.5x55 Swede for new data after you double check the condition and specs of your barrel and chamber to make sure of coal etc...

 

[BrocLuno]

Was the 257 case formed from the 7x57 cartridge? Is that the genesis of the 257 Bob, according to Wiki, it seems so... Seems that starting with one of your fire formed cases would be good to measure against the SAAMI specifications and drawings. If they match, you're in good shape for the chamber. Then it's just finding the powder that matches the existing if you want to duplicate the load. Or, starting with the milder form of 4350 as a safe load

Saying all that, if it was me, I'd touch off one of the rounds in hand and measure what comes out dimensionally. And I'd pull a bullet and look at the powder under a lupe. See if it looks like modern 4350. That's not a for sure anything but might tell something ...

My interest in all this is that I have a 6.5 Arisaka with a loose chamber. Too loose to be of much accuracy. but the bore is nice. So I was thinking 6.5-08... But this has me thinking 6.5x57 as an alternative

Seems dies are not that hard to come by. There are more than three sets for sale on eBay right now. ex: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hornady-Ser...122534?hash=item25c87861e6:g:xFkAAOSwKOJYJc~j

 

[LoonWulf]

When i get a chance ill see.if quickloads has an entry for the 6.5x257 or the 6.5x57, usually it has deminsional drawing could match them to what OP gets, along with water capacity of a case and i can turn out some startimg numbers.

Ill also need the powders you want to use, im guessing the meds will be best since it has the shorter barrel.

 

[RPRNY]

I'm still at a loss....

6.5x57 is a factory loaded, CIP spec cartridge, for which there is load data and readily available dies.

 

[LoonWulf]

True but depending on the reamer used to cut the chamber it may not match the CIP round. I know it was very popular to ream the to .257, that dosent mean the neck will take a 6.5 bullet, or the throat will be the same length, or a number of other things could be slightly different. The dies tho SHOULD work.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

I'm still at a loss....

6.5x57 is a factory loaded, CIP spec cartridge, for which there is load data and readily available dies.

From what I can find, the 6.5x57 has a different shoulder angle than 6.5x257 bob. Ive also seen some websites that say they are exactly the same. Im liking the idea of just shooting 1 and measuring the case. I would love to just be able to use 6.5x57 factory loads or load my own into 257 cases. The reloads I have are loaded into winchester 257bob cases and not the 7x57 cases.
This is a pretty rare model arisaka as its the factory made calvary carbine with an intact mum, not the ones they later cut down as a calvary rifle. Im assuming the rechambering probably ruined that value.

 

[BrocLuno]

Yes and no. It will reduce the number of interested parties who will pay. But it does not ruin the rifle. It is a non-visible alteration. For the foreseeable future it is a family heir loom and should just be shot as is.

Or you could get a good used barrel/chamber and restore it... A good used 257 chambered barrel will sell and it may be a wash in the end.

If you decide to sell it, I'd part it out. The various pieces will bring more than the whole by far. The full Mum barreled receiver with a known good chamber and bore in either 257 Bob, or 6.5x57 will sell by itself. The wood and stock fittings will go for somewhere over $200 by themselves. Trigger guard and magazine will prolly fetch $50 or so. A complete bolt would fetch somewhere around $100, if you decide to sell separate from the receiver ...

There are a lot of ways to go here... But first it needs to function and you need to know exactly what you are dealing with. Touch one off and see what Grandpa built

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

Yes and no. It will reduce the number of interested parties who will pay. But it does not ruin the rifle. It is a non-visible alteration. For the foreseeable future it is a family heir loom and should just be shot as is.

Or you could get a good used barrel/chamber and restore it... A good used 257 chambered barrel will sell and it may be a wash in the end.

If you decide to sell it, I'd part it out. The various pieces will bring more than the whole by far. The full Mum barreled receiver with a known good chamber and bore in either 257 Bob, or 6.5x57 will sell by itself. The wood and stock fittings will go for somewhere over $200 by themselves. Trigger guard and magazine will prolly fetch $50 or so. A complete bolt would fetch somewhere around $100, if you decide to sell separate from the receiver ...

There are a lot of ways to go here... But first it needs to function and you need to know exactly what you are dealing with. Touch one off and see what Grandpa built

Think I will just go shoot it.The comment about ruining the value doesnt matter as I would never sell it anyway. It will be kept even if I never ever shoot it. I will not drill and tap it for a acope so if it ever gets hunted with, it will be done with open sights. The sentimental value keeps me from altering or selling it.
Thanks, you guys have been very helpful.

 

[BrocLuno]

OK, when you go shoot it, be aware that the Japanese set up all their field rifles with a big 6 o'clock hold. They were zeroed at 200m, or there abouts. And at 100 you put the top of the foresight on the belt buckle and you'll get a center mass hit. So with a 6~8" target you will likely be hitting high. It's normal for their military sights.

The peep is biggish so it's hard to get real accurate. But from a led-sled they can do pretty well. It's not so much the rifle, as the way they deployed it. It was assembled for really adverse conditions, right down to the sliding dust cover (mud cover more likely...). So they accept dirty or corroded ammo, etc. Grandpa took care of the loose chamber. Now it's up to you and your skills

You do know that the crack in the stock was not a crack, but a dove-tailed joint in the two-piece stock... The LOP will be short for you unless you are about 5'... In order to get a better cheek weld on that fat stock, some guys take off the butt plate and save it. Add a 1" Pachmayer shotgun butt pad that screws on. It can be taken off and the original butt plate re-installed.

He stamped the barrel, so that is completely reversible. Just get a spare good used barrel to install if you want it back to spec. They are usually not screwed on that tight. Any machine shop with a split bushing press can "grab" the barrel and back off the action without harm. Assembling the new barrel means getting it to index. The mark is low on the left side of the receiver ring.

If you want the name of an Arisaka parts person I can supply. He's got about 100 barrels in stock

 

[LoonWulf]

If you want the name of an Arisaka parts person I can supply. He's got about 100 barrels in stock

DOH!, where were you when i needed a barrel for mine
I think thats good advice, and if you do decide you want to use the gun and the stocks is too short for you id suggest just getting a boyds replacement and keeping the original, original.
Quickloads has the 6.5x57, but not the 6.5Bob.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

You guys are unbelievably helpful. Im so glad I joined THR

 

[RPRNY]

From what I can find, the 6.5x57 has a different shoulder angle than 6.5x257 bob. Ive also seen some websites that say they are exactly the same. Im liking the idea of just shooting 1 and measuring the case. I would love to just be able to use 6.5x57 factory loads or load my own into 257 cases. The reloads I have are loaded into winchester 257bob cases and not the 7x57 cases.
This is a pretty rare model arisaka as its the factory made calvary carbine with an intact mum, not the ones they later cut down as a calvary rifle. Im assuming the rechambering probably ruined that value.

Aha. You've nailed it! Yes, the 6.5x57 has a shoulder of 18 degress 45 minutes whereas the 6.5 x 257 (if just a 257 necked up to 6.5mm) has a shoulder of 20 degrees 55 minutes. Thus the different dies. However, there are apparently variations in the 6.5 Roberts shoulder angle and there is a 6.5x257 Roberts Ackley Improved version! So, check shoulder angle on your reloads.

Dies for the 6.5x257 Roberts are available as well. Not cheap: http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/20...CBS-_-202726&gclid=CMKrtpiqs9ECFc64wAod7awNtw

And it's still just a case of FL sizing 257 Roberts or 7x57 Mauser brass (or 8x57 with the potential need for an intermediate stage and neck reaming). If it's the AI, CH4D do dies.