Reloading data for Surplus H4831?

[msta999]

Hi,
I'm new to reloading. I have been given some old surplus 4831 powder.One type of bullet I bought is the Barnes TSX Boattail 168 grain. The data I have is dated 1963 for 150-165 grain and 180-200 grain, but nothing for the 168 grain. Only the 180-200 gr bullets call for Hodgdon 4831 on the old data sheet. Since the date is dated 1963 I figure the surplus 4831 is good for the larger grain bullets at the amounts on the data sheet. My question is two fold, is my assumption correct on the 4831 and where can I find data for the 168 grain bullets, loading with the surplus 4831? (I'm assuming the loads for the surplus 4831 and the current H4831 are not the same, but I don't know for sure)

I did find this data: http://stevespages.com/308_6_165.html

But like I said, I'm not sure if the surplus is the same as the current 4831.
I'm loading for a 300 weatherby, using a lee loader.
Great forum by the way!


Just wanted to add this:

I read somewhere that some of the surplus 4831 was dupont, at least that was the thought of the writer. My data card says to use dupont IMR 4350 for 150-165, Hodgdon 4831 for 180-200. Why the different powder, I don't know. On the site I posted, they say 165-168 grain bullets use 69.9-85.5 grains of H4831. I'll try my 168 bullets at 70 and see how they shoot. What is an indication that I'll need to start moving up on the powder? I assume I should be able to look at the pattern and use that?

 

[msta999]

Another question I have is how critical is the bullet depth? My lee loader says to use a factory loaded round as an example, which is 3.542 inches. The specs I got off the internet say over all length is 3.562 inches. I went by the factory length, but my rounds are not exact. they vary between 3.532 and 3.560. The Noslers do have a point which is harder and longer than the other bullets, which may be why they are on the longer side of the range I posted here.

 

[Shoney]

Using the 69.9-85.5 grains of H4831 data is excessive on the high end, but the starting 69.9 as a start load is ok. Here are the current listings from Hodgdon.

165 GR. NOS BT_ IMR4831_ 73.0_2981_ 46,600CUP*-78.0_ 3175_54,100CUP*
165 GR. NOS BT_ H4831 _ _75.0_ 2934_ 46,400CUP -80.2_3113_54,000CUP*

My suggestion is to start at 70.0 grains and working up in 0.5 grain increments, watching closely for pressure signs, until you get an accurate load. I had quite a few pounds of the surplus 4831 and it shot best at or near max. You must approach max loads with care!!!!

Good Shooting!

 

[Ol` Joe]

Hodgdon got his start selling surplus 4831 powder. Call or e-mail Hodgdons powder and ask them if their present data will work with your old lot of powder or if not can they recommend a load or two. Chances are they will have a ton of old data for you.
Barnes bullets are different from everyday cup and core bullets and load different. Read the data and instructions on loading them at their web site. I believe they are still recommending a seating depth that allows a 0.050" run at the leade. This is/was important for reducing pressure.

 

[msta999]

Thanks Joe, but I went to their site and didn't see anything about bullet depth. I just seated them so they were not as deep as store bought weatherbys, but the shell was not longer than the max length I found.

I went to the range Sun night and shot at a target where I found all my shots were low by about 6 inches. When I first bought this wby I took it to the range and the first rounds I fired were pmc 165 rounds which were in the middle of the target but a wide pattern. I then fired Weatherby brand 180s and they were grouped good, but about 6 inches high. I set the scope to the weatherbys, thinking I'd just buy some more. But when I couldn't find any other weatherbys, I decided to reload. My question is why are the weatherby brand bullets so much higher at 100 yards than the pmc or the ones I reloaded? I had to adjust my scope back to where it was in the begining. I fired two different 180s and one type of 168's and they were all with in a 3 inch circle. What is different about the Weatherby brand bullets?

 

[Ol` Joe]

Thanks Joe, but I went to their site and didn't see anything about bullet depth. I just seated them so they were not as deep as store bought weatherbys, but the shell was not longer than the max length I found.

There is a COL listed for every load in their (Hodgdons) data. They don`t however show a 168 gr load, or more importantly a 168 BARNES TSX bullet in their loads.
The Barnes as I stated earlier is a whole different ball game from std cup & core bullet loading. Loading with lead core bullet data too close to the leade can cause problems you don`t want to experiance. Todays solid copper bullets are NOT the same bullet as the old 1960`s era lead cored offerings of theirs.
This is from their web site tech page.

Where do I seat the Triple-Shock, Tipped TSX and MRX bullets?

Answer. We recommend seating these bullets .050″ off the lands {rifling} of your rifle. This length can be determined by using a “Stoney Point Gauge” or other methods. You do not have to seat the bullet at, or on one of the annular rings.

I`d call or e-mail Hodgdon and Barnes for help with suggested data and COL. Barnes is probably the better source, but with old surplus also involved I`d talk to hodgdon too, just to be safe. They were the original source and know the differences, if any, between the old and new 4831 powders. I am assuming you are useing "new" H4831 data for your loads?

 

[msta999]

Thanks again Joe. I finally found a place with powder (primers too , I got some R19, so I made up some loads with that. I'll have to find out how to seat the bullet properly.

I started with the little lee loader, but just got an RCBS Jr3, which is almost too small for the 300 WBY, but it works. I liked the lee loader, but it seems to be kind of hard to get the depth consistent, the Jr 3 works better for this.

As I said before, I am just learning and every part is an adventure.

 

[30Cal]

Suplus powder can get exciting. If you don't have a chronograph, now's the time to get one.

 

[msta999]

What's wrong with just using a scale? For the rifle ammo anyway?

 

[30Cal]

The commercial powder you buy off the shelf is adjusted to acheive a consistant burn rate from one lot to the next.

Not so with surplus powder. There can be quite a bit of variation from one lot to the next.