Reloading For Years, Still a Novice

[dranrab]

The title says it all. I first started handloading in 1998 when I was stationed in Kodiak AK. I had 22-250, 243, 257 Roberts, 30-06, 35 Whelen and 45-70 Hunting rifles. I started handloading so that I could make ammo that simply was not available commercially. In addition, the supply of ammo in Kodiak was very limited, so I could always roll my own. It also provided a great passtime for those long, cold dark days in the heart of winter. The Lee Anniversay Kit served me well.

At the time, I was only interested in hunting accuracy and, it has been that way ever since. Lately I have taken greater interest in more precision. I went from the cheap plastic Lee Powder measure to a nice cast Hornady, thinking it would be more precise. It's not. I rarely had more than .2 grains of variability when I threw charges with the Lee. It's not unusual to go .5 grains with the Hornady and long kernel powder. I made a homemade trickler today and used it loading some 223 and 22-250. I will buy a good one next time I am at a store with reloading supplies. As I was going through the tedious process of adding (and sometimes removing) individual kernels, it go me wondering.

Has anyone done any testing where powder charges varied by up to .2 grains? If so, what kind of difference did it make in you accuracy at varying ranges?

I have more questions, but for the sake of simplicity, let's address them one topic at a time.

 

[200Apples]

Has anyone done any testing where powder charges varied by up to .2 grains? If so, what kind of difference did it make in you accuracy at varying ranges?

This thread posted recently does address your very question:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=808677

I have yet to shoot any of my now-100-count .41 Magnum reloads, so I will refrain from further comment until I get to the range.

Meanwhile, I think you'll find the above link some interesting reading.

 

[Laphroaig]

It sounds like you are soon to be in the position to answer your own question: do your individually weighed (down to the kernel) loads shoot more accurately than your thrown loads?

I subscribe to the theory than an accurate load occurs when the load recipe falls in a zone where the barrel harmonics are favorable. Of course assuming quality bullets, consistent neck tension, concentric bullet seating, and a few others that don't come to mind at the moment. I believe the "favorable barrel harmonics" zone can occur within a range of powder charges that should fall +/- 0.2 grains.

Laphroaig

 

[dranrab]

That's probably a great segue into what was going to be another part of the conversation.

Nodes

I first read about nodes 2 years ago. I have yet to try to chase them. Laphroig, it sounds like to are saying nodes occupy about a .2 grain range. Or is that a .4 grain range?

I have so many questions here that I don't know where to start. Is it safe to say that any good bullet (say an Accubond) is capable of delivering top level accuracy in any gun? Or are there some guns that just won't like a certain top quality bullet. I guess my point in asking is this. Where do you start and how long do you chase accuracy before you give up? Do you work through charges from the starting load up to max? Can you normally find a node working your way up through charges of .2 increments through a 2 grain range? How many rounds do you load at each charge weight? 3? 6? If you try a bullet/powder/primer/oal/brass combo that just doesn't work, you could burn up 50-60 rounds chasing a failure.

There are just so darned many variables. How do you control for those variables in the most economical way.

 

[PCCUSNRET]

you could burn up 50-60 rounds chasing a failure

There are just so darned many variables. How do you control for those variables in the most economical way.

Burned up many pounds of powder and hundreds (possibly 1000's) of bullets searching for the best possible load for each rifle I have purchased over the past 20 years and still not satisfied that there may still be a better bullet/powder combination for most of the guns I own. I am retired now so I am revisiting loads for some of these guns and have with a few of them came up with a better load than I had originally settled on. There seems to be a continuous addition of new powders and bullets and I'm a sucker for trying new reloading "stuff". If you are satisfied with 1" groups at 100 yds you can normally find something for most firearms by using load data recommended by one of the powder or bullet companies.

Best way I have found to find a decent load (if there is going to be one with a powder, gun, bullet combination) is to start at the low end and work my way up to max in lots of 5 of each at .5 grs increments. I used to load about 30 rounds for a test but have found that I usually end up with a decent load somewhere near the beginning or middle of the string so I now only load 15 to 20 rounds and if I don't have any success I will try the heavier loads.

 

[JimKirk]

I've been reloading since 1965 ... I was ten years old and I can tell you reloading is like a dog chasing it's tail .... you will never catch the end until you get too tired and lay down ... round and round we go ! I still love the chase !!

 

[Grumulkin]

Has anyone done any testing where powder charges varied by up to .2 grains?

In a way yes. It depends on the powder and case size. In a large case like the 458 Lott it's going to make less of a difference than in a small case like a 223 Remington. As for powders, some like H4821SC show a lot more of a difference on paper at 100 yards with a small weight change than some others like RL-22 and RL-25. In fact, regarding RL-25, I've recently been testing some 338 Winchester Magnum loads. There is very little difference at 100 yards in group size or point of bullet impact with charges from 66 to 68 grains of powder.

If so, what kind of difference did it make in you accuracy at varying ranges?

Beyond 100 yards, velocity and bullet stability tend to make a lot more of a difference. Varying velocities will tend to cause vertical stringing. As a bullet slows below supersonic speeds it tends to become more unstable which will open up groups.

 

[Laphroaig]

DR,

Yes, the concept of nodes is what I was getting at. I think that they are specific to any rifle/cartridge combination and it would be foolish to make generalizations without doing some testing. What I was saying though that the variation of charge weights that you get when dropping thru a measure shouldn't make a difference if you are loading within a "node".

Even if you count the kernals, your velocities will have a variation when shooting over a chrono. Would they be statistically more consistant, weighed vs thrown? I've never tried it, and don't know. Long range shooters seem to think so, and recommend weighing charges.

One way to explore the concept of nodes is through a ladder test. Here is a recent post that shows some results:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=808700&highlight=Ladder+test

My interpretation of this is that a charge in the mid-60's should be relatively accurate regardless if the charge weight varies by a few tenths.

Laphroaig

 

[JimKirk]

The accuracy nodes will change from gun to gun, bullet to bullet, powder to powder, primer to primer and brass to brass ... I usually find at least three nodes with any of the combinations of the above components .... one at the lower end of the loading data ... one somewhat in the middle and one near or at maximum levels. If I am working with a hunting gun ...I normally go for the one near max because I want to "get" the most out of that tool. If I am shooting for accuracy ... I go for the middle or somewhat middle node. If I am just plinking I may go for the lower node ... just to get enough accuracy and save on the cost of the components...

But it all goes back to the dog chasing his tail ... either you get close and stick to a load or you continue chasing ... I do both ...

 

[dranrab]

Great info folks. Thanks. Jim, it's encouraging to hear that there are several nodes through the acceptable charge weight of a given bullet and powder combo.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

With most extruded powders .2gr could be as little as one kernel of that powder. Asking any powder measure to do better that .2gr accuracy is asking too much. There have been threads reporting no noticeable or recordable different in accuracy with that small a variation. As a matter of fact a lot of the times ammo with triple digit ES numbers turn out to be the most accurate.

When does the quest become only about the quest and become obsessive? That is something that will be different for every person. I always try to produce the best ammo possible but that goalpost always seems to move lol.

 

[Bart B.]

Through 300 yards (sometimes further), there's a 4% to 5% spread in charge weights for a lot of ammo that'll produce MOA or better groups in most cartridges. The charge weights that'll do this are typically in the 50% to 100% of the weights shown in loading data. A 3/10ths grain spread in average charge weight will win matches and set records in proper rifles shot by good marksmen; through 600 yards and sometimes at 1000 if the components are the right ones. Extruded/stick powder has produced best accuracy. Bullet jump to the rifling can have a 1/100th to 1/10th inch difference; it's not critical at shorter ranges as long as each lot of ammo has the same amount.

If the rifle and its shooter are up to it. Hand held rifles contribute 25% to the accuracy obtained. Ammo's another 25%. Us humans with all our inconsistencies holding and aiming rifles are the remaining 50%. Sorry, but I hope the last one's accepted and understood. With benchrest rifles resting atop something on a bench to be fired in free recoil (virtually untouched by the shooter), I think accuracy's 45% rifle, 45% ammo and 10% the human's ability to reposition it for the next shot, then touch only its few-ounce trigger to fire it.

Don't forget that if one shoots several 5-shot groups, they'll have a extreme spread 3 to 4 times (sometimes more) that of the smallest one; happens all the time in benchrest matches. And the smallest one is not always the first one shot. There's a greater spread across several 3-shot groups. Very little across 20 shot ones and a bit less with 25-shot groups.

Judge accuracy by the largest group a load shoots. Those happen when some of the variables above are at their extremes in different directions. Tiniest groups happen when one of two things takes place; all's perfect. the other's when those variables cancel each other out. Which one do you think happens most of the time?

It's oft times stated that every rifle's different and needs loads unique them for MOA or better at short ranges. The fact that good commercial match ammo does (no case prep, 3-grain case weight spread, 3/10ths grain charge spreads, .003" bullet runout) that in decent rifles well counters that claim. And the facts that good handloads with the same component types and tolerances with good match bullets will test 1/3 MOA at 100 yards, 1/2 MOA at 300, 2/3 MOA at 600 and 1 MOA at 1000 yards; all with 20 or more shots per group in well built rifles.

Decades ago when I started shooting rifle matches, I thought about all these so-often-must-do details that are so popular. Then Sierra Bullets' ballistic engineer who tested their stuff for accuracy convinced me to do just the simple stuff and use component types and amounts the match winners and record setters use; he was one of them. Since then, I've never worked up a load for a new barrel, lot of cases (no prep at all), powder, primers or bullets. Helped some folks develop a load for a new Sierra bullet for which one didn't exist and we all came up with the same powder and charge weight for the same set of other components. Several thousand rounds were loaded and they shot extremely accurate across a couple dozen rifles from around the world.

 

[thomas15]

What I'm getting from the OP: The moral of the story is anyone who aspires to handloading greatness using long grain extruded powder must use a Lee perfect powder measure and a Lee powder scale to verify the load coming from said powder measure. Use of any other measure will most likely result in loss of accuracy in spite of the fact that the measure might be machined from steel to tight tolerances and the powder scale certified accurate to 4 decimals.

 

[dranrab]

Here's another question I should know the answer to but don't. I don't know what happens inside the bullet seating die. How important is it to place the bullet into the brass as straight as possible? Does the die straighten up the bullet? Is there any kind of video that depicts the inner working of bullet seating die?

OK, that was more than A question.

 

[flashhole]

You might want to research Don Newberry's Optimum Charge Weight. It's easy to Google and come up with good links.

The premise deals with finding the accuracy node (favorable harmonics) for your gun/load this is forgiving to small variations in powder charge. I've used the method on every gun I've owned and can tell you it works.

Not surprised to hear your comments on the Hornady equipment.

 

[dranrab]

I just read three of Newberry's articles. I'll read more. That makes perfect sense to me. Thank you!

 

[Bart B.]

Bullet seating dies are much like the chamber end of a barrel. Except the die's bullet chamber is a little bigger than the same place in the barrel. It lets the bullet easily get pushed up by the case mouth then seated into the case neck while the bullet tip is held in place by the seater stem. It helps if the seater stem is a tight fit in the die's bullet chamber.

The bullet chamber diameter for 30 caliber bullets will be anywhere from .001" to .002" larger than 30 caliber bullets. That's because 30 caliber bullet diameters range from .307" to almost .310" and it's best they don't get stuck in the die.

If the fired case neck is sized down so its mouth diameter is about .001" smaller than the bullets, most any seating die will seat bullets very straight. If the case mouth is smaller, then the case neck can bend crooked during seating and that makes the bullet crooked; it'll enter the chamber throat the same way. A tiny bit crooked is OK, too much causes the bullets to not center up perfectly in the bore and they'll go out with enough imbalance to jump off the bore axis and shoot away from the point of aim.

The use of full length sizing dies whose necks are only .002" smaller than that of a loaded round typically end up with the straightest necks on case shoulders and any seating die will seat bullets straight enough to shoot as accurate as everything else allows. Their expander buttons are removed because they can bend case necks after being sized down. Three ways to get such dies:

* Use RCBS or Redding full bushing dies with the bushing diameter .002" smaller than your loaded ammo's neck diameter.

* Have you own full length sizing die's neck honed out to that correct diameter, then toss the expander ball; decap fired cases in another die before cleaning them.

* Get one from Forster and they'll hone it out to your specs for another $12.

If your sizing die ends up making the case neck crooked, no seater die will make bullets straight in the case; they don't bend case necks enough back straight to help very much.

Depending on the tool used to measure bullet runout, the number read will have quite a spread for a given round of ammo. No cartridge spinner made holds bottleneck cases and the bullet like it is positioned in the chamber when fired. So whatever runout you get for a round from a runout tool, it'll be different than what it reads when fired.

That OCW method doesn't work all that good if you can't shoot your bullets inside 1 MOA to start with. Its developer puts that statement in his writings. And the OBT idea it's based on is a joke, in my opinion; way too many elements contradict facts. However, if you do the OCW or OBT thing several times the same way and get the same results each one, then you lucked out.

 

[thomas15]

flashhole speaketh thus....snip......."Not surprised to hear your comments on the Hornady equipment."

Can someone give me an amen?

____________________________


"...Many use tubular propellants which do not meter accurately...."

"I acquired this Ohaus 10-10 Reloading scale about 1980 and have used it extensively. It is my favorite handloading balance scale. Accuracy is +/- 1/10 grain (1/70,000 pound)."

---Metallic Cartridge Handloading M. McPherson, 2013, Safari Press, Long Beach CA. pg 177---


Lee Safety Scale Readable: 1/20th Grain

RCBS M1000 Accuracy: 0.1 grain

Redding #2 Accuracy: +/- 1/10 of a grain, 1/10 grain over/under graduations

Hornady Balance Beam Powder Scale Accuracy: +/- 0.1 Grains

Lyman Pro 500 Accuracy: 1/10th Grain

 

[spitballer]

.2 grains indeed makes a difference for me under certain conditions and I use such small increments, especially when adjusting upward toward the pressure point. But an ultimate velocity figure can't be set in stone, I found that out. Apparently it's got do deviate around the velocity that the barrel prefers, and velocity needs to bet set a few fps below this preferred velocity to allow for fouling. Thus for target shooting I've been chasing the smallest deviation that will allow continued firing without plugging up. Whether this figure is related to rate of twist remains to be seen, but I suspect that it is. I also suspect that any overtwist of the projectile has the potential to introduce inaccuracy, too. Funny, seems the more I learn the harder it gets lol

 

[Bart B.]

Please explain the details and theory about this:

But an ultimate velocity figure can't be set in stone, I found that out. Apparently it's got do deviate around the velocity that the barrel prefers, and velocity needs to bet set a few fps below this preferred velocity to allow for fouling.

Never heard of such stuff. How does any barrel prefer any velocity? Do you know that several people shooting the same rifle chronographing ammo can have up to a 100 fps spread in average muzzle velocity and accuracy's the same across all of them?

I've got sub MOA accuracy with .308 Win 26 inch barrels shooting bullets from 2400 to 2900 fps through 300 yards.

 

[spitballer]

How does any barrel prefer any velocity? Do you know that several people shooting the same rifle chronographing ammo can have up to a 100 fps spread in average muzzle velocity and accuracy's the same across all of them?

...in my case velocity quickly builds to around 3383 fps before leveling off. Pushing past this velocity causes flyers within a few shots. Thus I try to stay just below this "preferred" velocity.

Under certain conditions variations in velocity (within reason) have little effect on accuracy, this is true: I've had variations as much as 150 fps within a good group. But with my rig this has always happened below 3383 fps. Perhaps this is the point where friction begins to transmit energy to the barrel and affect the point of aim? Perhaps FMJ's are more forgiving in this regard and they don't encounter this sudden friction as noticeably as softer bullets?

All I know is that softer bullets tend to foul more and they're more challenging to load for this reason. Whether centrifugal force plays a significant role in fouling is debatable: maybe for soft cast bullets it does...