Reloading questions for a newb

[Hugger-4641]

ok this makes sense to me so OAL is not like a end all be all, it can be adjusted based on needs within reason, and if its not absolutely dead nuts perfect and adjusted for chamber, powder charge , pressure, it wont blow my firearm up unless im just stupid and seat the boolit within an unreasonable expectation

and that there is room for experimentation or weapon function testing so to speak

its not like ''oh i seated it slightly too low now my gun is a tool to give me the new name of stumpy ''

You are correct. I'll give you a real world example. I have about a dozen 9mm pistols and most book loads are fine in them, except for one. My Taurus G3c has an unusually tight chamber. I loaded some Sierra 115gr with HS6 that called for Oal of 1.125 and they wouldn't plunk in the G3c. I had to lower the Oal to 1.06. Since I was in middle of charge range and HS6 is not real sensitive, I didn't have to change anything else. If I had been using Titegroup and/or near max charge, I may have had to reduce my charge.

 

[Demi-human]

I remember that I thoroughly read the beginning chapters in my reloading manual, quintuple checked everything, made everything explicitly by the book, changing multiple components and hugged a tree, so it wouldn’t blind and kill me too. And shooting with my left so as to still leave me able to, um, eat…


It was exhilarating!
But unnecessary.

I can’t explain things as well as the others, so I’ll just offer my support, that, it gets easier.
The fog and mystery fades and the firehose becomes a plant spritzer, only growing fruit.

It just takes study.

Does this mean that though my understanding is correct that we can deviate from boolit weight slightly when form a starting load, that we want to always use the heavier weight data and not lighter

wouldn't lighter be a more suitable reference data as the load for a lighter boolit would be less grains, meaning less chance of an overcharge?

or am i not hypothesizing correctly do to unknown factors

Ah! I can help!
Yes to the first, no to the second, that is reversed.
A lighter bullet moves out of the way faster than a heavier one, thus making lower pressure, and needing more powder to create the same pressure.

We are capped by pressure. A heavy bullet will need less powder to make the same pressure under combustion, it has a higher moment of inertia.
Thus, we can use heavier bullet data for light bullets, but not the other way around.

 

[mdi]

Stop! You have listed waaaaay more equipment than actually needed to start reloading with a bench press. I have been reloading well over 40 years and still don't have/use all the stuff listed. I'd say first get a copy of "The ABCs of Reloading". It'll show the hows and whys of reloading, component explanations use, the tools and equipment needed and a bit about casting. Also when you actually start producing handloads, a Lyman 51st and if you eventually get int casting, the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (I prefer the 3rd Edition, but the 4th is OK). Unless you are rich and just wanna throw a bunch of money at a new adventure, you could pare that list down 50%.

In teaching Automotive Electricity/Electronics to apprentices I have found it much easier on the student to start simply and they will retain much better. I would suggest K.I.S.S., like begin with a single stage press, beam scale, I prefer a drum type powder measure and depending on which 45 you plan to load (45 Colt, 45 ACP?) case prep can be inspection and sizing (I started reloading for revolvers and I have found I very rarely measure case length. For semi-auto cases length checking is done quite well with a dial caliper (lifelong machinist/mechanic and I have found dial calipers to be trouble free and accurate for years).


Asking a question like this (nuttin' wrong with it!), you will get 20 different opinion for every 15 reloader's suggestions. Reloading is a very personal task and what fits my ammo needs, my reloading style, my guns, and my lifestyle, more than likely differ from yours.

Go slow. Double check everything. K.I.S.S. and have fun...

 

[TacticalBacon]

No.

Since heavier bullets use smaller powder charges, you always want to reference load data for slightly heavier bullets. Here's Hodgdon 200 gr lead load data for comparison.

• 45ACP 200 gr Lead SWC CFE Pistol COL 1.225" Start 7.4 gr (1,042 fps) - Max 8.2 gr (1,142 fps)
• 
  
• 45ACP 230 gr Lead RN CFE Pistol COL 1.200" Start 5.4 gr (816 fps) - Max 6.2 gr (942 fps)

oooh ok ... so heaver boolits use less powder charge, i thought it was the other way around, i should should have looked at my handbook before asking that question, thank you for that clarification

it seems counter intuitive in my head,my logic is that a lighter object would need less power to push it to push it to equal speeds as something heavier
maybe there's a factor im not privy to or maybe the goal is not to find a common speed among all loads but to instead increase it faster with lighter projectiles

 

[Hugger-4641]

oooh ok ... so heaver boolits use less powder charge, i thought it was the other way around, i should should have looked at my handbook before asking that question, thank you for that clarification

it seems counter intuitive in my head,my logic is that a lighter object would need less power to push it to push it to equal speeds as something heavier
maybe there's a factor im not privy to or maybe the goal is not to find a common speed among all loads but to instead increase it faster with lighter projectiles

You've got it mostly right except for the "equal speeds" part. If you look at max data for a 200gr bullet vs a 230gr version the same bullet, you see the velocity is lower for the heavier bullet. The safety factor for pressure is what you get using the heavier bullet data, not the velocity.

 

[TacticalBacon]

You've got it mostly right except for the "equal speeds" part. If you look at max data for a 200gr bullet vs a 230gr version the same bullet, you see the velocity is lower for the heavier bullet. The safety factor for pressure is what you get using the heavier bullet data, not the velocity.

ok so pressures are our limiting factor and with lighter projectiles we have more headroom in terms of pressure limits therefore we can push the projectile faster with a greater charge

am i compiling this correctly

that being said and if true how as reloaders can we see overpressure signs is there physical attributes or remnants left behind to give us signs that ''hey your in the yellow zone''

 

[Demi-human]

it seems counter intuitive in my head,my logic is that a lighter object would need less power to push it to equal speeds as something heavier

It does.
But it is the pressure we care about. A lighter bullet can go faster, with the same pressure.

Upon ignition the bullet begins to move. As the pressure builds up, and the powder burns, the volume of the combustion cylinder increases. We walk a fine line of putting enough powder in the case to keep the pressure up, chasing the bullet down the bore, while not passing pressure limits.
Lighter bullets just do everything faster.

that being said and if true how as reloaders can we see overpressure signs is there physical attributes or remnants left behind to give us signs that ''hey your in the yellow zone''

Nope. By that time, you are WAY over pistol pressures.

 

[Hugger-4641]

ok so pressures are our limiting factor and with lighter projectiles we have more headroom in terms of pressure limits therefore we can push the projectile faster with a greater charge

am i compiling this correctly

that being said and if true how as reloaders can we see overpressure signs is there physical attributes or remnants left behind to give us signs that ''hey your in the yellow zone''

Yes, pressure is THE limiting factor.
As for pressure signs, this is a very dicey thing in pistols. With a rifle cartridge, if you are stepping charges up in 0.2 gr increments and you start having stiff bolt lift, difficulty extracting, flattened primers, or extractor marks indented in the case head, these are reliable indicators of high pressure.
Pistol cartridges are not so simple. These signs may still apply, but it is very possible you could have a case failure before you ever see a flattened primer. I may get contradicted here, but in my opinion the best way to manage this in a pistol is with a chronograph. Without a chronograph, you really just need to make sure you stay below book maximums for charge weights.

 

[TacticalBacon]

It does.
But it is the pressure we care about. A lighter bullet can go faster, with the same pressure.

Upon ignition the bullet begins to move. As the pressure builds up, and the powder burns, the volume of the combustion cylinder increases. We walk a fine line of putting enough powder in the case to keep the pressure up, chasing the bullet down the bore, while not passing pressure limits.
Lighter bullets just do everything faster.


Nope. By that time, you are WAY over pistol pressures.

so that being said a plinking or SHTF reloader benefits from shooting heavy grain projectiles not by much but in terms of cost savings if high precision is not the goal because of reduced needed resources to achieve that pressure balance

but a precision load or load intended to inflict as much damage as possible benefits from a smaller projectile as higher speed is more flat shooting and speed creates a larger impact force

 

[TacticalBacon]

Yes, pressure is THE limiting factor.
As for pressure signs, this is a very dicey thing in pistols. With a rifle cartridge, if you are stepping charges up in 0.2 gr increments and you start having stiff bolt lift, difficulty extracting, flattened primers, or extractor marks indented in the case head, these are reliable indicators of high pressure.
Pistol cartridges are not so simple. These signs may still apply, but it is very possible you could have a case failure before you ever see a flattened primer. I may get contradicted here, but in my opinion the best way to manage this in a pistol is with a chronograph. Without a chronograph, you really just need to make sure you stay below book maximums for charge weights.

ok that makes sense i mean i never intend to push the limits anyways

once i have a good understanding of how things work, i intend to buy dies so i can reload .308 which is my prefered hunting cartridge, i may try slowly adding heat too it then

but for my pistol cartridges, I'm not trying to blow the doors off a humvee with the shockwave, i just want reliability and safe to shoot and one day making my own defence rounds using HP

iv always believed why push the envelop, none whats a hole in them regardless of how fast its going, so long as its fast enough to do the job that's needed why push it

 

[Demi-human]

Well, the lead is usually the expensive part, even with ten cent primers.

And this no longer novice information and, too, is very subjective.

but a precision load or load intended to inflict as much damage as possible benefits from a smaller projectile as higher speed is more flat shooting and speed creates a larger impact force

My precision loads are heavy, for the most part.

But yes generally.
Maybe not a smaller projectile, but one that is moving faster will impart more kinetic force than a slow one. But with pistol speeds, this is mostly unobtainable or difficult to measure.
There are differences in gel tests between 185 grain bullets and 230 grain bullets. But a larger difference comes from the bullet construction, whether hollow point, RN, frangible, skived or not.
I prefer penetration.

 

[TacticalBacon]

i have learned so much from everyone's posts thank you so much

please share more information i can benefit from the knowledge and so can others

 

[Demi-human]

i have learned so much from everyone's posts thank you so much

please share more information i can benefit from the knowledge and so can others

So how about that fire hose?

I just learned .308 day is March Eighth…

The best part about a .45, if it doesn’t expand, it’s still a .45…
Tell me it’s a 1911. You sound like a 1911 kind of human.

The real schooling starts at the bench. Once this early befuddlement is passed there will be more questions. Which we will gladly answer.

 

[Hugger-4641]

but a precision load or load intended to inflict as much damage as possible benefits from a smaller projectile as higher speed is more flat shooting and speed creates a larger impact force

I wish this were so simple also, but it's not.
A higher velocity lighter bullet will shoot flatter for a limited distance. But a heavier bullet will not lose velocity as quick, so it will actually shoot flatter at some point and beyond.
As for "Impact Force" as you put it, also not quite correct. Bullet construction, design, and the target composition have more influence on this.
A light hollow point bullet going too fast may disintegrate without penetrating very far. Or conversely, a fmj going too fast may pencil thru and not deliver much energy. In general, for pistol rds, most target ammo is on the lighter side, self defense ammo is generally in the middle, and hunting ammo is usually on the higher end.
You probably wouldn't want to use Buffalo Bore hard cast 45 ammo for SD against a person because it will over penetrate, but for a bear, its what you want. Like wise, you wouldn't want to use a light hollowpoint on a bear, for SD against two legged varmints, its a better choice.

 

[TacticalBacon]

So how about that fire hose?

I just learned .308 day is March Eighth…

The best part about a .45, if it doesn’t expand, it’s still a .45…
Tell me it’s a 1911. You sound like a 1911 kind of human.

The real schooling starts at the bench. Once this early befuddlement is passed there will be more questions. Which we will gladly answer.

lol yes 1911 indeed though i do have other .45's like my glock 36 and Ruger American pistol and other handguns in other calibers my EDC is a Springfield 5in Government and my back up is a american tactical officer

 

[AJC1]

lol yes 1911 indeed though i do have other .45's like my glock 36 and Ruger American pistol and other handguns in other calibers my EDC is a Springfield 5in Government and my back up is a american tactical officer

Let me make you situation crystal clear. If you see pressure signs your waaaaaay out of bounds. 45acp is a low pressure cartridge and will not show you a pressure problem intil your in danger. You may or may not experence rapid dissambly prior to seeing pressure signs.

 

[TacticalBacon]

Let me make you situation crystal clear. If you see pressure signs your waaaaaay out of bounds. 45acp is a low pressure cartridge and will not show you a pressure problem intil your in danger. You may or may not experence rapid dissambly prior to seeing pressure signs.

highly noted

i don't intent to push any limits, as matter fact if the starting load functions and cycles i may just stick with that load, but i don't intend on going past max load data or even half that for that matter

im hoping that i can crony at close to factory velocities' but if i cant ill just be happy with what i got that is safe, until i get more experience under my belt and i can start experimenting more

 

[TacticalBacon]

I wish this were so simple also, but it's not.
A higher velocity lighter bullet will shoot flatter for a limited distance. But a heavier bullet will not lose velocity as quick, so it will actually shoot flatter at some point and beyond.
As for "Impact Force" as you put it, also not quite correct. Bullet construction, design, and the target composition have more influence on this.
A light hollow point bullet going too fast may disintegrate without penetrating very far. Or conversely, a fmj going too fast may pencil thru and not deliver much energy. In general, for pistol rds, most target ammo is on the lighter side, self defense ammo is generally in the middle, and hunting ammo is usually on the higher end.
You probably wouldn't want to use Buffalo Bore hard cast 45 ammo for SD against a person because it will over penetrate, but for a bear, its what you want. Like wise, you wouldn't want to use a light hollowpoint on a bear, for SD against two legged varmints, its a better choice.

Makes sense to me

my overall goal and the predominate reason i began my journey into reloading is, i seek self reliance, i don't necessarily want to be beholding to company that are hoarding and gouging just because they can,

Granted i know at any fundamental level, i will always be reliant on a company to provide me things, but my train of thought is that reloading provides me with the tool necessary to become self reliant if that must be the case, and those tools once acquired can't be taken away unless by force, and at a fundamental level everything used to make a cartridge can be resourced from other means in dire situations, sure atm i am beholding to companys for things like lead, powder , primers , ext. but if things get bad i can find lead , make powder/ pull powder from incompatible ammo finds, make primer compound ,find casings to me its worth the need for a higher knowledge

but at the moment when things are not bad its a means for me to acquire my ammo for cheaper and have a load that is catered to my needs and not general purpose with a quality i can control, and it seems just plan fun TBO

maybe im think about things wrong

 

[AJC1]

Makes sense to me

my overall goal and the predominate reason i began my journey into reloading is, i seek self reliance, i don't necessarily want to be beholding to company that are hoarding and gouging just because they can,

Granted i know at any fundamental level, i will always be reliant on a company to provide me things, but my train of thought is that reloading provides me with the tool necessary to become self reliant if that must be the case, and those tools once acquired can't be taken away unless by force, and at a fundamental level everything used to make a cartridge can be resourced from other means in dire situations, sure atm i am beholding to companys for things like lead, powder , primers , ext. but if things get bad i can find lead , make powder/ pull powder from incompatible ammo finds, make primer compound ,find casings to me its worth the need for a higher knowledge

but at the moment when things are not bad its a means for me to acquire my ammo for cheaper and have a load that is catered to my needs and not general purpose with a quality i can control, and it seems just plan fun TBO

maybe im think about things wrong

Reloading follows the same rules of any other self reliance procedure. You must possess the critical components. One can stockpile flashlights but with no batteries its nonsensical. Having a cool secure location is most important. Other factors like moisture can be controlled by containers and desiccant. Have cases in large and small primer, and in 308 that applies the same. Should you choose 6.5c over 308 the same applies.

 

[Demi-human]

maybe im think about things wrong

Nope, nothing wrong with that. Just, we talk about the how, not the reasons why, here.

Self sufficiency is an admirable goal. And it warms my Scot blood to save coin. Casting will do the most toward that. An art unto itself, and one I haven’t dabbled with yet, but it doesn’t keep me from collecting scrap lead.

But seriously, buy primers.
When they are a good price and one can afford it, not just when it’s convenient. $7,000 seems like a lot for primers, it’s a short ton for me, but that is a hundred thousand rounds, at today’s prices. Even if you shot them up, the cost average for replenishment will still be less than if bought piecemeal over one’s remaining lifetime.

 

[TacticalBacon]

one more question if i may i hope its related to this topic

i have heard that the lee loadmaster is very unreliable because of its priming system IE. limits primer brand uses, and is known for primer detonations , and that it is often prefered to decapp and prime on a seperate machine hints why i kept my single stage hand me down and purchased a rocksford hand primer

my idea in stages was to
1. aquire brass
2. decapp and size brass on single stage
3. prep brass ie.trim, swage , chamfer
4. ultra sonic clean brass
5. hand prime
6. store brass for progressive reloading

this opens 2 stations on my progressive press for a powder cop and a factory crimp die because im not using priming system/ back out the priming pin screw nor decapping die then i can go through the remainder of tasks in their appropriate stages with some added features

is this viable or will i see problems doing it like this

.

 

[Hugger-4641]

one more question if i may i hope its related to this topic

i have heard that the lee loadmaster is very unreliable because of its priming system IE. limits primer brand uses, and is known for primer detonations , and that it is often prefered to decapp and prime on a seperate machine hints why i kept my single stage hand me down and purchased a rocksford hand primer

my idea in stages was to
1. aquire brass
2. decapp and size brass on single stage
3. prep brass ie.trim, swage , chamfer
4. ultra sonic clean brass
5. hand prime
6. store brass for progressive reloading

this opens 2 stations on my progressive press for a powder cop and a factory crimp die because im not using priming system/ back out the priming pin screw nor decapping die then i can go through the remainder of tasks in their appropriate stages with some added features

is this viable or will i see problems doing it like this

.

This is similar to what I do. I have a Lee Classic 4hole turret press, but I use my JR-2 for decaping in batches. Then I clean them. I have all three types, Ultrasonic, vibrator, and wet tumbler. The wet tumble does the best. I use the vibrator infrequently now to clean lube from live ammo. I prime batches of 20 to 100 offline using my Lee auto bench prime for rifle cases and usually my RCBS hand held for pistol cases. As you mentioned, I back out the decapping pin on my sizing die and use the turret for size-powder drop- seat- factory crimp.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

well i wasn't sure which is the best option, but my method of thinking was ''get it while the getting is good'' as it seem economic and political factors are making it harder hand harder to do anything involving pew pew stuff. i have a single stage that's a hand me down, i can learn on if need be, but progressive seemed more practical to me as i shoot alot of ammo i mean ''alot'' , it seems the processes are not much different, just you dont have to set up and tear down as often it seems i can still check my progress along the way as i would with a single stage

i feel that i made a sound decision but maybe i didnt, i dont know much ATM in terms of reloading, my very first cartridge will be coming hot off the press prolly next weekend. not literally ''hot'' not ready for that yet, lets hope its not a hot load

If a progressive is what you start on and it works for you, then it was the best decision. If you immediately run into problems, don't be surprised - that happens with every new hobby - and don't get discouraged. It's probably not "because you started on a progressive," but because you didn't ask a dumb question and instead made dumb assumptions. Again that happens a lot. Just learn and move on. If you start out with the progressive and decide it's just not working for you, you have the single stage as a fall-back. Go slow, don't rush, and stay focused. That last thing is probably the most important.

 

[Demi-human]

is this viable or will i see problems doing it like this

It is how I do it.
It is your machine, use it as you see fit.
I, like @Hugger-4641, would rather work with clean cases from the start.
I deprime them all on a Lee APP, clean them with pins, then load them on a Hornady AP.

After having my AP running for a minute, I’d really like a seven or ten station press.
But I’d also like it to say Hornady on the side.

 

[ih772]

What you are going to find out with that particular bullet mold is you will have to seat the bullet VERY deeply into the case in order for it to plunk test. A lot deeper than other 230gr LRN bullets. So deeply if fact that the completed cartridge will look very strange and short when compared to other 45ACP LRN ammo. At that point your eyes and gut should be telling you that something isn't right. I've read that particular bullet mold with its single radius ogive is intended more for use it the .45 Colt than the .45ACP.

I've already been down the road you're about to embark on with that particular mold and ended up having to buy a different mold from a different manufacturer. Those bullets (RCBS 230gr LRN) seated at a more reasonable depth when I did the plunk test on them.