Reloads for 9mm federal hi-shok and hydra-shok

[Kyle frankum]

I have been searching the internet for days and i have not been able to find any reloading recipes for federal bullets. While federal bullets are not sold new as components, they are sold as pulled demilitarized or old stock. I purchased some federal hi-shok and hydra-shok for plinking before I realized there was no reloading data for this projectile with OTC powders. Does anyone know of a recipe for CFE pistol or Power pistol powders with a 124 gr, 135 gr and 147 gr hi-shok and hydra shok? I am relatively new to reloading and would like to get as much information as possible before I reload. I typically prefer to use published recipes for a reload, but in this case there doesn't seem to be any information for reloading this bullet in this caliber. My first concern, I have been told that the space between the powder and the bullet can determine overall combustion pressure. If there is to much space, pressure can become excessive and possibly cause failure and damage the firearm or worse yourself. So, can anyone help me develop a reloading recipe for these projectiles in a 9mm or direct me to places where I can learn how to determine chamber pressure and how each variable can be accounted for? My current education level is trig based physics. If anyone from RMReloading could help or another vender who sales these pulled projectiles would be appreciated. I will be shooting these loads through a 9mm smith and wesson shield.

 

[BigBore44]

Go to Alliant’s website and look at their load data for those bullet weights for JHP’s. Start low, work up. Simple.

Just because they’re Hydra-Shok bullets doesn’t mean anything when reloading. As long as the bullet lengths/weights are the same as other JHP’s, you’re good to go.

 

[CZ9shooter]

You are just gonna have to pick whichever is closest and go from there. Start at the bottom, or 10% under max, if that is all that is listed. As long as you use a reasonable OAL you will be fine.

I dont know about CFE Pistol, but PowerPistol works up real nice. No surprises down low, maybe a just a little soot, and you can go up about as high as you want. Velocity will increase smoothly and consistently. You should be able to replicate hotter factory ammo (if that's what you are after) without any trouble. And in my experience, accuracy increases as charge level increases with this powder. Especially so with XTP bullets.

Being you are new, PowerPistol might be louder than what you are used to. It generates a bit of flash too. That is normal and does not necessarily indicate abnormally high pressure. While you can certainly produce good reloads without one, a chronograph will help a lot in understanding what your ammo is actually doing.

 

[ray15]

CFE Pistol is easy to work with but like PowerPistol works best near max pressures. By max I mean the SAAMI 9mm luger maximum chamber pressure of 35,000psi. I've not loaded 135 or 147, but have had success with it using jacketed 124gr. bullets. The recommended charge weight is 4.6-5.1gr., which in Hodgden's testing produces speeds in the range of 1000-1120fps. The published data in this and most cases is with a 4" barrel, so you'll have to reduce all the target velocites to account for your Shield's shorter barrel.This is using the 125gr. Sierra FMJ, which has a diameter of .355".

Assuming your 124gr. bullets are .355" diameter and chamber fully at reasonable overall cartridge lengths (typically 1.08-1.12" for JHPs), you can safely start at 4.5gr. and work up. If your bullets are smaller in diameter you'll need slightly more powder than the recommendation and if yours are larger you'll need to back off from their charges a bit. The easiest and safest way determine what to work up to is to get a chronograph, and stop at whatever charge it takes to produce ~1,050fps in your Shield, on average. Generally 5gr+, producing ~32,000-33,000 psi, depending on a host of variables.This is where CFE Pistol starts working great rather than good.

If you aren't using a chronograph, it's also pretty easy to tell with CFE-P if you shoot a while. If you're too far off max pressures you end up with unburnt bits of powder all up your arm, assuming a typical semi-auto handgun. Spent cases will evidence considerable muck, and when you're really light on the charge there will be a glossy appearance to it for some time after shooting. As you get closer to max it cleans up on both counts. And the accuracy ramps and the recoil becomes a bit more than target grade, and ejection gets pretty energetic.

Unfortunately there's no 135gr. recommendation, but there is 147gr. JHP data that can safely applied to the 135. You'll likely find a slightly higher max charge is poductive with the lighter bullet, but again you need to work each load up from a safe starting point evidenced by the powder manufacturer's data to whatever level you deem reasonable for your purposes.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

 

[Walkalong]

a 124 gr, 135 gr and 147 gr hi-shok and hydra shok

Those are standard "cup and core" jacketed bullets. The "cup" is the jacket, and the "core" is a small cylinder of lead. The lead is put in the jacket and they are then run through forming dies.

So, you can use data for other similar bullets such as the Speer, Hornady, Sierra, etc of the same weight.

You do need to take into account how deep the bullet is seated in the case, and in the 9MM it is more critical than some due to the pressures it runs at and the small case volume. That is easy to figure out if you know the bullet lengths. Folks here can help provide ones you don't have. Then use the OAL from the data and figure out what your combination needs to be so it isn't seated deeper, or if it is (Needs to be), of course you will need to back off on the charge weight.

 

[Sunray]

"...they are sold as pulled..." They are. Federal doesn't sell bullets. Doesn't matter anyway.
You do not need bullet specific data. Load for the bullet weight and you'll be fine.
Alliant’s website won't help for CFE. Hodgdon's will though. No 130 or 135 grain data. An odd weight anyway. However, the published data for that weight is mostly for cast or plated bullets.
"...safely start at 4.5gr..." Applies to jacketed 124/125's only.

 

[Walkalong]

Load for the bullet weight and you'll be fine.

Load for the bullet type and weight.

 

[Kyle frankum]

I am getting a new set of calipers in this week. Once it comes in, i'll post the average bullet lengths. Thanks guys for the quick responses.

Ray15, I am planning to purchase a chronograph sometime in the next month or so, is their any particular brand you recommend? I have a few cabela's gift cards i could burn up for this.

 

[ray15]

I bought one of these: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1015050210/caldwell-ballistic-precision-chronograph

It works pretty good - but understand the ability to interface with a smartphone is a hit-or-miss affair with respect to phone compatibility. I never did get it work with my Android tablet and finally bought an old iPhone off of ebay to get it working. And it's still a bit fussy. The chronograph itself is very basic with no memory or averaging functions; you have to use a smartphone for that. When it works, it's great because you don't have to write anything down, and that allows you to test a lot of loads in a hurry with all the data in electronic form.

There are also the Competition Electronics units for just a little more that have good reputations. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/113204/competition-electronics-prochrono-pal-chronograph

Check out the listings at Midway, there are many user reviews on most choices.

You also should search up the topic here on the forum. There's a definitive thread on about any reloading topic with many posts from people of experience.

 

[Walkalong]

Velocity on the chrono doesn't correlate to pressure exactly, but the chrono is a useful tool and if you are getting unexpected velocities, something is amiss. A fast powder will get less velocity at max pressure than a slow powder, so everything has to be factored in.

So, nice to have, and a great tool, but you can't measure pressure with one, although it can give you a really good info that helps.

 

[ray15]

Velocity in itself is just a rate, and no one is suggesting that alone dictates pressure.

Measuring velocity allows you to check your correspondence to the load data for a given powder. The entire range of charges, starting to max, will in many cases need adjustment for your exact components, loading practices and their interaction with your gun under your shooting conditions. Without knowing the velocity your load is producing you can only guess if you need to run less or more powder to approximate the velocity and thus pressure of the published load data. And with how vaguely 9mm shows overpressure you could be considerably over max if you really needed to bring the entire range down 0.3-0.4 grains and did not realize it.

This is even more important in cases like the OP's, where this is no published data for the projectiles being used. Although Hodgden's load data indicates 5.1gr. of CFE-P is a safe max load producing ~1,120fps, if these bullets need seated deeper in the case to chamber or have a larger diameter you might well reach that 1,120fps and thus near-max pressure with less powder. Without the chrono you might load 5.1gr. and get 1,200fps, indicating you are over the nominal 35k psi max pressure but see it as a good place to stop because nothing blew up. Or the degree of overpressue might be greater, and produce more dramatic feedback..

 

[Walkalong]

no one is suggesting that alone dictates pressure.

I know you didn't and I know you understand, I was just helping to clarify.

I tried to word it so it didn't sound that way. Guess I flunked.

 

[Kyle frankum]

Thank you both. I have found this forum to be really helpful in learning about reloading. It is so much cheaper to reload than buy factory. I will probably always use factory defense rounds; but I don't necessarily feel factory loads are better. If you take the time to double measure everything and provide proper research to your loads, i'd believe, reloads would be more reliable and consistent even for defense. I also would prefer to carry a defense load that responds identical to the rounds i practice with. Defense loads seem to be $.50-1.50 per rounds. I can't do much practice at that cost. At this time, my reload cost is averaging $0.11 per round. I still have a lot to learn but this is starting to become a nice hobby.

 

[LiveLife]

I am relatively new to reloading and would like to get as much information as possible before I reload ... I will probably always use factory defense rounds

Very good idea and welcome to THR.

I don't necessarily feel factory loads are better. If you take the time to double measure everything and provide proper research to your loads, i'd believe, reloads would be more reliable and consistent even for defense.

This is an incorrect and very dangerous assumption and you know what they say about assumptions?

Why?

- Factory ammunitions use all NEW COMPONENTS. New brass will provide more consistent neck tension (friction between bullet and case wall) which will result in more reliable feeding/chambering and more consistent chamber pressures that translates to more consistent muzzle velocities (more on Chrono and SD number on my next post) and ultimately greater accuracy.

- If you are using mixed range brass with unknown number of firings/reloadings and varying condition of brass from headstamp/lot variation and work hardening that will result in different amount of neck tension when the slide slams the nose of finished rounds on the feed ramp, bullet setback can occur which could increase chamber pressure to over published maximum. Inconsistent amount of bullet setback can produce different levels of chamber pressures to affect muzzle velocities and accuracy.

- Consistent "finished" OAL/COL and bullet seating depth are useless until you are able to produce consistent "chambered OAL" with no or little (less than a few thousandths of an inch) bullet setback AFTER rounds are fed/chambered from the magazine. Your holes on target will be determined not by finished OAL but by chambered OAL.

- Pulled bullets have been crimped and may have smaller diameter than new bullets. Smaller diameter bullets are likely to produce less neck tension and susceptible to more bullet setback.

Can you reload rounds that will experience little or no bullet setback when chambered? Yes, with certain diameter bullets and careful adjustment of reloading dies. Keep in mind not all 9mm bullets are sized .355". With mixed range brass, if you want greater neck tension to reduce bullet setback (especially if your barrel's groove diameter is more than .356"), you want to use larger sized bullets like .3555"-.356" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...re-sized-the-same.818806/page-2#post-10567453

So until you are able to produce consistent finished rounds that reliably feed/chamber from the magazine and produce little or no bullet setback, I recommend you not use them as defensive rounds.

I also would prefer to carry a defense load that responds identical to the rounds i practice with.

While this is a good idea in theory, not very practical in reality as ammunition manufacturers use powders that are not often available to reloders as canister powders. Only verification we have where this is the case is Alliant BE-86 which apparently has been used past 30 years as OEM powders for CCI/Federal/Speer factory JHP ammunition.

I use Speer Gold Dot HP and Remington Golden Saber JHP factory ammunition for defensive rounds and have used same bulk projectiles with WSF powder over the decades to produce comparable "practice" reloads along with HS-6, AutoComp and CFE Pistol for higher velocity "full power" loads. Since BE-86 has produced greater accuracy with higher velocities, I will be using BE-86 for future "practice" reloads using Gold Dot and Golden Saber projectiles.

As to producing loads that respond similar to factory rounds, there is difference between POA (Point of aim) vs POI (Point of impact) and felt recoil. POA/POI difference between typical mid-to-high range reloads vs factory JHP is often less than 1" at 7-15 yards, not very significant. What I consider more important is felt recoil and amount of muzzle flip for fast follow up shot practice (double tap in USPSA shooting). For this, I found faster than W231/HP-38 powders replicate comparable "snappy" felt recoil of factory JHP good enough for range practice with mid-to-high range load data. Personally, I use Red Dot/Promo in 9mm, 40S&W and 45ACP with jacketed/plated/coated lead/lubed lead bullets to produce very comparable practice loads.

 

[LiveLife]

I am getting a new set of calipers in this week. Once it comes in, i'll post the average bullet lengths.

If you are new to using calipers, you may want to order pin gages to practice. At less than $3, they can help you get consistent with using calipers - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...re-sized-the-same.818806/page-2#post-10513430

I am planning to purchase a chronograph sometime in the next month or so, is their any particular brand you recommend? I have a few cabela's gift cards i could burn up for this.

I bought one of these: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1015050210/caldwell-ballistic-precision-chronograph

It works pretty good - but understand the ability to interface with a smartphone is a hit-or-miss affair with respect to phone compatibility. I never did get it work with my Android tablet and finally bought an old iPhone off of ebay to get it working. And it's still a bit fussy. The chronograph itself is very basic with no memory or averaging functions; you have to use a smartphone for that. When it works, it's great because you don't have to write anything down, and that allows you to test a lot of loads in a hurry with all the data in electronic form.

+1 on Caldwell chrono (BTW, Caldwell is owned by Smith & Wesson) and I paid slightly more than $70 shipped for mine - https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-720001-Ballistic-Precision-Chronograph/dp/B00HTN5DTE

I bought mine on Amazon and it has worked very well with different android devices without much issue (Different LG/Samsung cellphones and Acer tablet). It hardly ever throws errors and consistently reads in different weather conditions, even in bright sun/overcast/cloudy days. I found key to more consistent readings is shooting over the top of chrono near the bottom of the "V" sun screen sticks where the "eyes" of the chrono are located.

 

[Kyle frankum]

Anyone have the length of a Hornady XTP 147 gr bullet alone? i'd like to compare lengths with the hydrashok.

 

[Kyle frankum]

Those are standard "cup and core" jacketed bullets. The "cup" is the jacket, and the "core" is a small cylinder of lead. The lead is put in the jacket and they are then run through forming dies.

So, you can use data for other similar bullets such as the Speer, Hornady, Sierra, etc of the same weight.

You do need to take into account how deep the bullet is seated in the case, and in the 9MM it is more critical than some due to the pressures it runs at and the small case volume. That is easy to figure out if you know the bullet lengths. Folks here can help provide ones you don't have. Then use the OAL from the data and figure out what your combination needs to be so it isn't seated deeper, or if it is (Needs to be), of course you will need to back off on the charge weight.

The depth of the Hi-shok 9mm 147 gr is on 12 random pulls (16.48, 16.48, 16.48, 16.47, 16.48, 16.46, 16.41, 16.40, 16.39, 16.36,16.54) measured with harbor freight pittsburgh caliper. All measurements in metric mm. So, how do I figure out how far to seat the bullet?

 

[Load Master]

The depth of the Hi-shok 9mm 147 gr is on 12 random pulls (16.48, 16.48, 16.48, 16.47, 16.48, 16.46, 16.41, 16.40, 16.39, 16.36,16.54) measured with harbor freight pittsburgh caliper. All measurements in metric mm. So, how do I figure out how far to seat the bullet?

By what will fit and cycle in your gun. This is first and foremost. Once you find this then start with a charge on the low end. Check to make sure the charge will cycle the gun. If not, step up the charge until you find the one that will cycle.

 

[Walkalong]

Follow Loadmaster's advise. Load for function, determine if it is seated deeper, adjust start/max charges accordingly. Start low and work up. You may find the seating depth is very similar, but maybe not, just have to check.

 

[Kyle frankum]

I compared this bullet against what I believe (fairly certain) is a 147 gr gold dot. The hydra-shoks are identical in length and weight. The diameter measured at 0.3455 on both as well. I can't see any reason why the load data for the speer gold dot would not work then. Any input on this?

 

[Walkalong]

Assuming you are correct that it is a 147 gr GD, I agree, when seated to the same depth. Try the OAL that gets it seated to the same depth and see if it functions well.

 

[LiveLife]

So, how do I figure out how far to seat the bullet?

By what will fit and cycle in your gun. This is first and foremost. Once you find this then start with a charge on the low end. Check to make sure the charge will cycle the gun. If not, step up the charge until you find the one that will cycle.

+1 to Load Master's post.

Walkalong has an excellent thread for determining max/working OAL/COL - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...l-with-your-bullet.506678/page-2#post-8864541

Follow Loadmaster's advise. Load for function, determine if it is seated deeper, adjust start/max charges accordingly. Start low and work up. You may find the seating depth is very similar, but maybe not, just have to check.

As Walkalong posted, if working OAL is much shorter than published OAL (bullet seating depth), I usually reduce start/max charges by .2-.3 gr.

 

[joneb]

Hey kyle, in regards to the 135 gr bullets I load for a Springfield XDS 9 with a 3.3" barrel. I settled on Hornady's critical duty 135gr for carry ammo this ammunition shoots well in this pistol at a velocity of 1,027 FPS and it is accurate.
For practice loads that mimic the Hornady load I use X-treme's 135 gr fp or hp with Accurate #7 or Ramshot True Blue.