JFrank
Member
It’s just the difference in harmonics from bullet to bullet, once you select your final load adjust your scope accordingly
Reloads inconsistency?
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Steve in NC
Member
ohihunter2014,
First off I hope you get feeling better! I talked to my older brother in PA last night and you would swear he had pneumonia they way he sounded and was coughing.
That last group you posted knowing you aren't using wind flags and the equipment you have is very very respectable group at a little over 1/2". I would do exactly like you say and simply keep shooting going forward and keep an eye on your overall accuracy level. I suspect what you call a flyer in that last group may not be a flyer but "in the group" sort of speaking.
THR member "bds" has been posting lately about 10, 20, 30 or more shot groups for a 9mm to get a truer overall picture of accuracy level. Yes he is doing it with a 9mm pistol but somewhat of the same theory applies I believe. You are trying to shoot 5 shot groups and sometime 1 or 2 get loose and its driving you crazy if you just look at the 5 shot groups as individuals. But what if you theoretically shot 50 perfectly aimed shots and your end result of all 50 shots is this same 1/2"? Then that "flyer" in your last 5 shot group isn't really a flyer in the grand scheme of things. Hope that makes sense. Or if you keep your target lay the multiple targets on top of each other lining up the same aiming point and you should be able to overlay all of your 5 shot group that are off to the right over each other and "see" and bigger overall picture of the rifles capability. But wait to do this after you have fired some more groups now that you fixed the parallax issue.
The left to right movement of the group probably is harmonics as Jim eluded too. It concerns me a little as this should show more up and down in group placement rather than left to right. When you get a lot of harmonic changes in the horizontal plane in a rifle that I'm trying to really tune, usually causes me to look at barrel to action squareness, bedding, (we've already covered parallax), something mechanical, or inclusions in the barrel itself. But again you are shooting a complete factory rifle and they aren't perfect. So I think your plan of simply stop thinking, and keep shooting what you have is a good idea. Like I said before 1/2" groups is nothing to sneeze at with your given equipment.
I like benchmark in the 223. I jsut fired several hundred rounds in my AR during a carbine/pistol transition class on Tuesday. After running the rifle hard I didn't have a huge buildup of carbon. Overall the powder burns really clean and the muzzle flash is really low from a 16" AR barrel. Obviously this doesn't concern you and your rig going after chucks, but knowing it burns really clean is a good indicator also as well as the accuracy you are getting.
Keep us updated of future testing/results. getting maximum accuracy out of a bolt gun is my life passion. I like and train with my AR and pistols for defensive purposes and have fun with it. But sitting down at a bench or open fields and squeezing of rounds into tight clusters at paper or varmints..... that is a special place
Steve
First off I hope you get feeling better! I talked to my older brother in PA last night and you would swear he had pneumonia they way he sounded and was coughing.
That last group you posted knowing you aren't using wind flags and the equipment you have is very very respectable group at a little over 1/2". I would do exactly like you say and simply keep shooting going forward and keep an eye on your overall accuracy level. I suspect what you call a flyer in that last group may not be a flyer but "in the group" sort of speaking.
THR member "bds" has been posting lately about 10, 20, 30 or more shot groups for a 9mm to get a truer overall picture of accuracy level. Yes he is doing it with a 9mm pistol but somewhat of the same theory applies I believe. You are trying to shoot 5 shot groups and sometime 1 or 2 get loose and its driving you crazy if you just look at the 5 shot groups as individuals. But what if you theoretically shot 50 perfectly aimed shots and your end result of all 50 shots is this same 1/2"? Then that "flyer" in your last 5 shot group isn't really a flyer in the grand scheme of things. Hope that makes sense. Or if you keep your target lay the multiple targets on top of each other lining up the same aiming point and you should be able to overlay all of your 5 shot group that are off to the right over each other and "see" and bigger overall picture of the rifles capability. But wait to do this after you have fired some more groups now that you fixed the parallax issue.
The left to right movement of the group probably is harmonics as Jim eluded too. It concerns me a little as this should show more up and down in group placement rather than left to right. When you get a lot of harmonic changes in the horizontal plane in a rifle that I'm trying to really tune, usually causes me to look at barrel to action squareness, bedding, (we've already covered parallax), something mechanical, or inclusions in the barrel itself. But again you are shooting a complete factory rifle and they aren't perfect. So I think your plan of simply stop thinking, and keep shooting what you have is a good idea. Like I said before 1/2" groups is nothing to sneeze at with your given equipment.
I like benchmark in the 223. I jsut fired several hundred rounds in my AR during a carbine/pistol transition class on Tuesday. After running the rifle hard I didn't have a huge buildup of carbon. Overall the powder burns really clean and the muzzle flash is really low from a 16" AR barrel. Obviously this doesn't concern you and your rig going after chucks, but knowing it burns really clean is a good indicator also as well as the accuracy you are getting.
Keep us updated of future testing/results. getting maximum accuracy out of a bolt gun is my life passion. I like and train with my AR and pistols for defensive purposes and have fun with it. But sitting down at a bench or open fields and squeezing of rounds into tight clusters at paper or varmints..... that is a special place
Steve
JFrank
Member
Very good post by Steve,
As pointed out the lack of wind flags will keep you guessing - is it me my load or the wind.
Take a look at my Avatar you’ll see a 1.9 five shot group at 600 yards and what just a tiny bit of wind can do to an otherwise excellent string.
As pointed out the lack of wind flags will keep you guessing - is it me my load or the wind.
Take a look at my Avatar you’ll see a 1.9 five shot group at 600 yards and what just a tiny bit of wind can do to an otherwise excellent string.
Thanks, Steve I hope I do get to feeling better and hope your brother gets better as well. I don't ever get sick and when I do its bad, but I must go, go, go!ohihunter2014,
First off I hope you get feeling better! I talked to my older brother in PA last night and you would swear he had pneumonia they way he sounded and was coughing.
That last group you posted knowing you aren't using wind flags and the equipment you have is very very respectable group at a little over 1/2". I would do exactly like you say and simply keep shooting going forward and keep an eye on your overall accuracy level. I suspect what you call a flyer in that last group may not be a flyer but "in the group" sort of speaking.
THR member "bds" has been posting lately about 10, 20, 30 or more shot groups for a 9mm to get a truer overall picture of accuracy level. Yes he is doing it with a 9mm pistol but somewhat of the same theory applies I believe. You are trying to shoot 5 shot groups and sometime 1 or 2 get loose and its driving you crazy if you just look at the 5 shot groups as individuals. But what if you theoretically shot 50 perfectly aimed shots and your end result of all 50 shots is this same 1/2"? Then that "flyer" in your last 5 shot group isn't really a flyer in the grand scheme of things. Hope that makes sense. Or if you keep your target lay the multiple targets on top of each other lining up the same aiming point and you should be able to overlay all of your 5 shot group that are off to the right over each other and "see" and bigger overall picture of the rifles capability. But wait to do this after you have fired some more groups now that you fixed the parallax issue.
The left to right movement of the group probably is harmonics as Jim eluded too. It concerns me a little as this should show more up and down in group placement rather than left to right. When you get a lot of harmonic changes in the horizontal plane in a rifle that I'm trying to really tune, usually causes me to look at barrel to action squareness, bedding, (we've already covered parallax), something mechanical, or inclusions in the barrel itself. But again you are shooting a complete factory rifle and they aren't perfect. So I think your plan of simply stop thinking, and keep shooting what you have is a good idea. Like I said before 1/2" groups is nothing to sneeze at with your given equipment.
I like benchmark in the 223. I jsut fired several hundred rounds in my AR during a carbine/pistol transition class on Tuesday. After running the rifle hard I didn't have a huge buildup of carbon. Overall the powder burns really clean and the muzzle flash is really low from a 16" AR barrel. Obviously this doesn't concern you and your rig going after chucks, but knowing it burns really clean is a good indicator also as well as the accuracy you are getting.
Keep us updated of future testing/results. getting maximum accuracy out of a bolt gun is my life passion. I like and train with my AR and pistols for defensive purposes and have fun with it. But sitting down at a bench or open fields and squeezing of rounds into tight clusters at paper or varmints..... that is a special place
Steve
The gun/loads are driving me nuts because I have gotten the rifle to shoot better and same hole several times and then it just stopped. I have plans to bed the action but $ is tight right now and at any day I could be called to do Varmint control, so cant have the gun down. My buddy saw me do it 3 times and says yeah, your screwed! That gun will probably never do that consistently but you will spend tons of $ trying to keep it that way. We have access to about a thousand acres of bean fields and usually shoot around 40-50 woodchucks a year between 2 of us and they just started planting beans. I am also a little scared to bed it for fear of messing something up and then I'm out a stock.
The one I called a flier was the one not touching the group.
I do like Benchmark the most out of the 3-4 powders I have tried because the rifle doesn't seem to get as dirty and the accuracy is the best out of all the other powders. I cleaned the rifle after H335 and got about 10 coal black patches. Benchmark are generally grey and clean in about 3.
I plan to finish the 10 rounds with CCI 400 primers tonight and see if it tightens up any. Tomorrow I will adjust OAL a little closer to the lands and see how they shoot. Its very bad when your rifle range is 10min from the house. No wonder I am broke!
I have to say shooting woodchucks at 100-125yards with factory ammo the first year I really started hunting them was exciting and rewarding because they do trash fields pretty bad, but when I went prone on the hillside with this rifle, 55gr V max and a load of Benchmark and a Woodchuck about 275yards and after 2 rounds of hitting dirt just in front of him I made some turret adjustments and let the 3rd round fly and it made its mark. I felt a sense of accomplishment that my load did that.I keep forgetting to put something out. I shoot down in a bowl where its trees 100yards wide all the way down the range, so not really any wind. I will try and remember to put a flag out tonight.
Steve in NC
Member
Jim,
Do you or have you shot NBRSA 600yd BR? Have you ever done NBRSA 1000yd?.... if so we may have met before. I've traveled out west and shot several 1000yd matches at Byers, CO as well as many IBS matches in the eastern 2/3 of the continental US. There was a group of guys from WA and OR that always came down to Byers for the Nationals. Trying to remember their names. Good bunch of guys.
I have a couple 1.X targets from 600yds. That is good shooting!
ohihunter2014,
Put some flags out and watch for awhile. You will be surprised how the wind moves and you don't even think it's there. Reading wind flags is its own little art form so be pateint. For now pick good calm evenings to test with and keep doing what you have been doing. Then slowly incorperate flags and mirage into your shooting as you start to becomes more comfortable with them.
Steve
JFrank
Member
I shot NBRSA 600 at Tri County Ore in March, I’m heading to Montana next week IBS 1000, without dropping names I probably know or shot against the guys and gals you’re referring to.
I’ll send you a PM a bit later
Jim
I’ll send you a PM a bit later
Jim
Anyone who thinks the wind does not affect the bullet at 100 yards has never shot a one hole capable rifle over wind flags. Just can't convince them wind moves bullets at 100 yards. I have given up trying. I tell them, they boo hoo it, and I go away.
JFrank
Member
Dang Boss, you got more flags then Mike Ezell..Anyone who thinks the wind does not affect the bullet at 100 yards has never shot a one hole capable rifle over wind flags. Just can't convince them wind moves bullets at 100 yards. I have given up trying. I tell them, they boo hoo it, and I go away.
View attachment 844185
J
JFrank
Member
I’m partial to large Rick Graham flags coupled with Adarama stands.Looks like I better go shopping to keep up the pace.
J
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JFrank
Member
My friend always says to light a camp fire then tell me there’s no wind.
Steve in NC
Member
Anyone who thinks the wind does not affect the bullet at 100 yards has never shot a one hole capable rifle over wind flags. Just can't convince them wind moves bullets at 100 yards. I have given up trying. I tell them, they boo hoo it, and I go away.
Keep at it!. I'll back you up and will call BS every time when someone says they consistently shoot bug holes without wind flags! Sit them behind a good tuned LV rifle and shoot 1 relay of VFS at that little dot at 100yds. 5 shots is all it will take and they will see first hand how much a very fast custom made 6mm bullet moves around.
Steve
Dudedog
Contributing Member
To much only applies when shooting groups.
(and there is such a thing as to much when shooting groups)
DRAINSMITH
Member
O.K. some have said it might be your reloads, some said it may be your rifle.
But I have another idea. Did you piss the wife off and she starched your underwear? Or did she tell you she was going to put starch in what is in your underwear after you got home?
Did your fourteen-year-old daughter just tell you she was in love with a twenty-seven-year-old man that has more tattoos than the Democrats has folks running for president? On his face!
Did your sixteen-year-old son sneak out at two in the morning and seal your truck only to crash it into your garage door and total out your truck and your wife's car with double the alcohol limit?
Hows your blood pressure, your blood sugar level? Or did you just have a bad day?
Go back to the range. You will probably be O.K.
But I have another idea. Did you piss the wife off and she starched your underwear? Or did she tell you she was going to put starch in what is in your underwear after you got home?
Did your fourteen-year-old daughter just tell you she was in love with a twenty-seven-year-old man that has more tattoos than the Democrats has folks running for president? On his face!
Did your sixteen-year-old son sneak out at two in the morning and seal your truck only to crash it into your garage door and total out your truck and your wife's car with double the alcohol limit?
Hows your blood pressure, your blood sugar level? Or did you just have a bad day?
Go back to the range. You will probably be O.K.
JFrank
Member
When competing and your last shot is a flier- Almost assuredly it’s the shooter....
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