Remington rifle settlement, including free trigger replacement, is official
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BigSteve57
Member
I wish I knew how much truth there is to the claims that the triggers were defective. I have heard too much conflicting information to remain anything but puzzled. And for the record, I don't trust 60 minutes either for the specific reporting on Remington or for their reporting in general.
EDIT: There was a thread on 60 minutes on this board (I thought I read something about it on here).
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/60-minutes-story-about-remington-700-triggers.817095/
EDIT: There was a thread on 60 minutes on this board (I thought I read something about it on here).
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/60-minutes-story-about-remington-700-triggers.817095/
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badkarmamib
Member
I don't know the exact numbers, but my father had an SPS with an X-Mark Pro go off in the woods when he disengaged the safety. Scared him more than he will readily admit. When you have a hardened sear floating on an unhardened shoe, and you don't seal the assembly against contamination, there is the potential for something to get in the works.
MidRoad
Member
I bet there turn around times for non trigger issues are going to be looooog time once people start sending in the ones included in the trigger "recall/settlement". I hear the turn around time is slow as it is now....
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The CNBC report was 100% accurate. This has been a well known issue with Remington since the 1970's, the problem existed in the 1940's, but it took a few years before the word got out. There were similar reports on TV news 40 years ago. It isn't so much that they are defective, but it is a flawed design. They work exactly as designed.
But the problem is so rare, that most shooters will never see it happen. I'm one who has. I own a 1974 produced bought new in 1975. I had heard of the problem shortly after buying mine, but ignored the issue until some point in the 1990's. I pulled my rifle out of the safe one day and when I touched the safety so I could open the bolt I heard the firing pin fall on an empty chamber. I was able to reproduce it 3-4 times then it stopped. Never did it again until about 5 years ago. Same exact scenario. Picked up the rifle out of the safe and it dropped the firing pin on an empty chamber. I haven't hunted with the gun much in years, but decided to buy a Timney for it before it gets passed down to kids or grandkids.
Every single one of these guns have the potential to do this. It isn't a manufacturing defect that only effects some rifles. But the internal trigger parts have to be positioned just right in order for it to happen. Some guns will be used a lifetime and never do it. Or some, like mine will only do it once every 20 years. When something happens so rarely, and it is impossible to duplicate on demand I can see why there is doubt.
The 1946-2006 Walker designed triggers have the floating trigger connector that causes the problems. Mike Walker, the designer discovered the flaw in 1946 and designed a new trigger without it, but management didn't want to change the design.
The X-Mark is the post 2006 trigger that does not have the trigger connector. BUT.... some of those guns were found to have adhesive that somehow got into the trigger mechanism during assembly and cause problems. Those guns were recalled in 2014.
Here is my advice. If I had an older gun I'd replace the trigger myself. It is a 10 minute DIY project and you'll get a much better trigger than the new one anyway. And not have to wait months to get it back from Remington.
flphotog
Member
BigSteve57
Member
I found this link.
https://theproductlawyers.com/remington-700-lawsuit/
I'm not enough of a gunsmith (OK I'm not a gunsmith at all) to evaluate this but it's the only place where I found a write-up of the issue that, if it's correct, even I could understand. Sounds like stuff somehow gets between the Trigger Connector and the sear? Or the trigger connector being of softer metal just wears down at the top? The article mentions Consumer Reports! It sounds like Consumer Reports diagnosed the flaw that caused the rifle to fire after the safety was disengaged. I had no idea they ever tested guns!
https://theproductlawyers.com/remington-700-lawsuit/
I'm not enough of a gunsmith (OK I'm not a gunsmith at all) to evaluate this but it's the only place where I found a write-up of the issue that, if it's correct, even I could understand. Sounds like stuff somehow gets between the Trigger Connector and the sear? Or the trigger connector being of softer metal just wears down at the top? The article mentions Consumer Reports! It sounds like Consumer Reports diagnosed the flaw that caused the rifle to fire after the safety was disengaged. I had no idea they ever tested guns!
When the designer of the trigger thinks that it could be a problem, Remington should have fixed it. Unfortunately, they did not and now the bankrupt company has to fix its mess. What muddies the water is that it is still a relatively rare event and misuse,abuse, violation of gun safety rules, botched trigger jobs, etc. also have to be considered as potential causes.
It is a standard check for a firearm to determine if it fires after pulling the trigger while on safe (with an empty chamber and magazine pointing in a safe direction of course). If the rifle "fires", then you have work to do to make it safe. A lot of old milsurps were made unsafe in the quest to get a single stage trigger in Mauser designs or monkeying with sear springs, engagement surfaces, etc. in the quest for the perfect trigger--e.g. the lightest possible. Most of these rifles were designed to be drop safe as issued if not monkeyed with or worn/abused. Often after Bubba got to them, they were an accident waiting to happen.
When I got into milsurps, that is the reason I acquired Kuhnhausen's Mauser shop manual and spend the money on books dealing with other rifles to educate myself what parts should look like before actually shooting them. The internet helps as well as do the blowups after action postings.
It is a standard check for a firearm to determine if it fires after pulling the trigger while on safe (with an empty chamber and magazine pointing in a safe direction of course). If the rifle "fires", then you have work to do to make it safe. A lot of old milsurps were made unsafe in the quest to get a single stage trigger in Mauser designs or monkeying with sear springs, engagement surfaces, etc. in the quest for the perfect trigger--e.g. the lightest possible. Most of these rifles were designed to be drop safe as issued if not monkeyed with or worn/abused. Often after Bubba got to them, they were an accident waiting to happen.
When I got into milsurps, that is the reason I acquired Kuhnhausen's Mauser shop manual and spend the money on books dealing with other rifles to educate myself what parts should look like before actually shooting them. The internet helps as well as do the blowups after action postings.
When I was about 12 or 13, my Dad bought me a .243 Remington 660 for deer hunting. After finishing a morning hunt, we were back at camp for lunch. I went to unload, and as I disengaged the safety in order to lift the bolt, the rifle fired. My finger was nowhere near the trigger at the time. Fortunately, my Dad had taught me good muzzle discipline, and I had the muzzle pointed in the air. A year or two later, we learned about the problem and recall, but the incident had a real negative effect on me as a young boy, and turned me off of hunting and firearms for a long time.
earlthegoat2
Member
I would never send the rifle back to Remington. If the issue bothered me I would eat the cost and install a Timney. I am a big fan of Remington guns in general but I would rather not any of their booger hooks touch my triggers.
DM~
Member
Starting in 1971, I personally have had/owned over (100) 700's pass through my hands, and I've NOT had it happen even one time!
In all of those triggers, NOT ONE of them had been adjusted or was oily/dirty!
Have I ever seen it happen, I mean, I WAS running a gun shop, so yes I have. In EVERY case, the trigger had been adjusted OR was dirty or both!
After leaving my shop, not one of them ever came back or did anyone ever tell me it happened again.
DM
In all of those triggers, NOT ONE of them had been adjusted or was oily/dirty!
Have I ever seen it happen, I mean, I WAS running a gun shop, so yes I have. In EVERY case, the trigger had been adjusted OR was dirty or both!
After leaving my shop, not one of them ever came back or did anyone ever tell me it happened again.
DM
Got a service ticket from Remington yesterday.
A local shop is a Remington service and repair center.
Took my 30 year old model 700 to them today and they changed out my trigger while I waited (20 minutes maybe)
I can not tell any difference in pull weight or creep from my old trigger.
I'm very happy!
SC45-70
A local shop is a Remington service and repair center.
Took my 30 year old model 700 to them today and they changed out my trigger while I waited (20 minutes maybe)
I can not tell any difference in pull weight or creep from my old trigger.
I'm very happy!
SC45-70
berettaprofessor
Member
I’d much rather have a voucher to pay part of an aftermarket trigger and install it myself than have to take the gun somewhere (no gunsmiths within 40 miles) or send it off. Remington, why isn’t that an option? I’ll sign a release....
Otherwise they’ll put in a trigger that will have to be replaced again in 40 years.
Otherwise they’ll put in a trigger that will have to be replaced again in 40 years.
I think that one of the issues was if Remington admitted the trigger had a defective design by redoing it, lawsuits would be able to use that fact to make Remington pay for past sins. Thus, the corporate bean counters kept rolling the liability risk into the future. Second, from all accounts, it is a relatively rare event which had to have additional factors to cause injury or death. This meant that Remington accountants probably did a cost benefit analysis that indicated that it was cheaper to defend and settle cases as they came rather than redoing the trigger which might open them up to more suits.
The problem of liability for rare faults is why I don't think that you will see self driving cars multiply without some sort of protection from liability for manufacturers. The more complicated the technology, the more spots where it can go wrong. Nuclear power plants have that limitation with a maximum payout set by the feds which btw which overrides state laws regarding torts as do foreign airlines where treaties set maximum liability for carriers and override U.S. and state tort law.
The problem of liability for rare faults is why I don't think that you will see self driving cars multiply without some sort of protection from liability for manufacturers. The more complicated the technology, the more spots where it can go wrong. Nuclear power plants have that limitation with a maximum payout set by the feds which btw which overrides state laws regarding torts as do foreign airlines where treaties set maximum liability for carriers and override U.S. and state tort law.
JTHunter
Member
About 30 years ago, I bought a used 700 in .243. After doing some testing with factory loads (and being disappointed in them), I started reloading my own and got great results. A few years later, I was hunting groundhogs (woodchucks) on a neighbor's property and laid the gun down on the passenger seat of my truck. I dumped the magazine out through the floorplate, picked the gun up with my left under the forend and palmed the bolt with my open right. BOOM !! I had a nice new hole through the side of my truck just behind the driver's door. When my ears quit ringing, I looked the gun over carefully for damage as the bolt had kicked me in the web between thumb and index finger and I wasn't sure what or how this had happened. I tried to repeat what happened several time since - without success.
Will I alter this gun? I don't think so.
It works well for the little use I get out of it. I KNOW there MIGHT be a problem with the gun so I am more careful handling this gun than I am with any other.
Will I alter this gun? I don't think so.
It works well for the little use I get out of it. I KNOW there MIGHT be a problem with the gun so I am more careful handling this gun than I am with any other.
Mowgli Terry
Member
I never could get one of the participants to share what the defense had to say in this case. Also, on the net all sorts of stuff came out. I have had three unintentional discharges with a Remington. All these rifles had triggers adjusted by Bubba. I have never seen a bolt handle came off save with the help of a 2x4. Nor have I had an extractor fail. For safety sake I had the Walker trigger replaced in my SPS 7mm-08. The new trigger breaks clean and is slightly heavy for my tastes. I need to see about the credit as my on 721 cannot be adapted to the new trigger. One of those 700 exhibits in the law suit looked like a dug relic from the Civil War.
Addendum: How about checking how long Mr. Walker continued to work of Remington after the infamous safety letter.
Addendum: How about checking how long Mr. Walker continued to work of Remington after the infamous safety letter.
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Llama Bob
member
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There's quite a few dead people voting "defective".
Mowgli Terry
Member
How many is ",,,guite a few". There was all kinds of figures being used in this thing. Once the number given was quoted 90,000 complaints were made about that trigger alone. How many people came out of the woodwork to claim problems with the 700? How many of these people showed up after the safety issue became a hot topic on the net? Where were all these people prior to the suit?
To many of us who have used 700's knew about potential danger. Many were well aware that "adjusting" the trigger put you at risk. The trigger was not perfect. How many of this unintentional discharged business had to do with Bubba and/or really lousy maintenance? How many of the gun gurus had anything to say about the trigger?
Addendum: How about checking how long Mr. Walker continued to work of Remington after the infamous safety letter.
To many of us who have used 700's knew about potential danger. Many were well aware that "adjusting" the trigger put you at risk. The trigger was not perfect. How many of this unintentional discharged business had to do with Bubba and/or really lousy maintenance? How many of the gun gurus had anything to say about the trigger?
Addendum: How about checking how long Mr. Walker continued to work of Remington after the infamous safety letter.
When the news about the triggers came out years ago, I replaced mine with a Timney. Wasn't going to trust Remington with a replacement. I want absolute confidence my firearm is safe and even a low probability of the gun firing when the safety isn't on safe and the trigger pull is not worth an injury or death.
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
I have a Walker trigger 700.
There is no way I would send it to Remington.
I don't chamber a round until the rifle is shouldered, pointed downrange, and ready to fire- with any of my rifles.
There is no way I would send it to Remington.
I don't chamber a round until the rifle is shouldered, pointed downrange, and ready to fire- with any of my rifles.
I was with a friend of mine at our range and he was shooting his Model 700 in .270. He loaded the magazine and when he closed the bolt on a cartridge in the chamber the rifle discharged. I was looking right at him when this happened and the rifle went off on it's own and not for anything that he did wrong. For Remington to deny that anything was wrong with the Model 700 was just unethical of them. He did send the rifle back to Remington and they did replace the trigger.
Mowgli Terry
Member
I really think many, if not all, the accidental discharges have been caused by Bubba. When the trigger had been "adjusted" by Bubba it was an accident going to happen. Closing the bolt index and middle finger touch the trigger. This was changed with bolt lock being removed from the safety-thirty+years ago. My personal experience was with an XP100. It was a used gun that was being test fired. The gun went off. Pointed down range, it only kicked up dirt. That one went off when the bolt closed. Bubba yet again. I remember Remington having warning about not breaking the seals on screws in the trigger. So far as I'm concerned, as a long time Remington owner and shooter, this lawsuit is BS to the core.
morcey2
Member
The person who designed the trigger said that it was a defective design long, long ago. The solution when it was first designed would have cost pennies, but Remington wouldn't do it. I don't doubt that bubba adjusted triggers cause issues also, but I personally know someone who had it happen with a gun that was NIB and had only had about 10 rounds through it on its "maiden voyage". It has been very well documented how the design is flawed. If the trigger connector gets anything between itself and the actual trigger, it can force the sear engagement surface forward to the point where it will no longer effectively block the sear from moving down. If the safety is on when this happens, releasing the safety releases the firing pin. If the safety is off, but the sear engagement is insufficient, any bump on the bolt can cause the gun to fire. It is extremely rare, but it is a real problem and every 700 (and many other Remingtons) with the Walker trigger are at risk of an unintentional discharge. If I owned one, which I don't, it would probably get a Timney trigger or something similar and call it good.
Matt
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