Renaming the AR15 and other "Assault Rifles"

[HoosierQ]

Modern Sporting Rifle.

Sport Utility Rifle.

The first one seems to be picking up some real traction. Let's face it people, the things are referred to as Assault Rifles because that's what we gun afficianados called them 20 years ago...and felt no shame or embarassment about it...it was an incorrect term to describe the civilian versions of the real assault rifles. It was ages before that was picked up by the media. I don't think they did until the 1994 AWB kicked in the the media learned the word from that.

Whether or not we'll be able to change the name again or not is anybody's guess. 20-25 years ago just about everybody called an AR-15 an M-16 because back then, the predominant (if not only) product was an exact morphological replica of same (sans selective fire). Nobody refers to them as M-16s any more so maybe there can be change.

 

[Warp]

Oh, I'm certainly not saying any of us should purposefully use the wrong term. But to go around vehemently correcting anyone over it -- especially in some hope that it will help our larger cause -- is probably at least a wasted effort, and definitely counterproductive in the long term.

If you want to get semantically rigid, maybe do the clip-vs.-magazine thing. At least that one seems less likely to backfire on us.

I wouldn't characterize posting about the terms/names in a thread whose topic is about the terms/names as "going around vehemently correcting anyone over it". I mean, I could post about something completely off topic in here instead, but I figured that posting on the topic of the thread was probably what THR desires.

Naaah, but it'll do in a pinch.

Probably just accepting that there is a limit to how much angst we really aught to let show over this sort of thing. Yeah, there's a technical definition. Yeah, the other side is misusing it, possibly to make a point, probably out of ignorance of the technical details -- and definitely because common usage has made the word mean a general thing to most people.

I don't care for it, and I think it's sloppy, and I don't do it because it's dumb. However, it isn't worth raised blood pressure (or annoying your friends and opponents both over).

Do we give in and call them automatic weapons and machine guns? Same difference.

Honestly curious which inaccurate labels/definitions we go with and which ones we don't.

 

[Sam1911]

As I said, I don't "go with" any wrong terms, myself. But here we're arguing like it matters, when it really doesn't much.

Don't use the wrong term if you can help it. If you can't help yourself, well, that's too bad.

I wouldn't characterize posting about the terms/names in a thread whose topic is about the terms/names as "going around vehemently correcting anyone over it".

It's getting kind of silly. "Why do you insist on being wrong?" Really? C'mon. He's making a point and he's half right. Half wrong, too. Right in that the term really has been redefined in common usage and there's little any of us will ever do to "fix" that. Wrong in that he's -- literally wrong, using the wrong word -- and half daft because he knows better and doesn't care. But so what? What's the point of the continued argument?

I mean, I could post about something completely off topic in here instead, but I figured that posting on the topic of the thread was probably what THR desires.

What the heck does that even mean? Wait, wait...don't tell me. Just let it go.

Do we give in and call them automatic weapons and machine guns? Same difference.

What would be the point? If you really want to show off to folks that you don't know any better, go ahead. That ISN'T the common usage, not to anything like the degree that "assault rifle" has become equivalent in casual speech. Might as well call them Wombats. I like that one, really I do!

 

[Warp]

What would be the point? If you really want to show off to folks that you don't know any better, go ahead. That ISN'T the common usage, not to anything like the degree that "assault rifle" has become equivalent in casual speech.

Give it time, Sam, and we'll be having this exact thread with this exact discussion, but it will be about calling the M1 Garand a machine gun.

 

[Sam1911]

Well, that will be a good laugh, to be sure.

I just dread the day when we're fighting to finally repeal the NFA and the antis are tossing at us, "But you said you just wanted those safe semi-autos that AREN'T deadly Assault Rifles!!!" Then we'll be kicking ourselves for making such a flaming big deal out of the happy switch.

 

[Warp]

Well, that will be a good laugh, to be sure.

I just dread the day when we're fighting to finally repeal the NFA and the antis are tossing at us, "But you said you just wanted those safe semi-autos that AREN'T deadly Assault Rifles!!!" Then we'll be kicking ourselves for making such a flaming big deal out of the happy switch.

I'm not sure why you are equating using the proper term with actually putting forth the argument that AR type rifles shouldn't be banned because they aren't assault rifles.

Those are two completely different things.

If we correct people for calling an AR a machine gun, does that mean that we are arguing that we shouldn't be allowed to own machines?

 

[Sam1911]

I'm not sure why you are equating using the proper term with actually putting forth the argument that AR type rifles shouldn't be banned because they aren't assault rifles.

Those are two completely different things.

What? No they aren't! The only reason to care what folks call them is that the media portrays Ar-15s (and AKs, etc.) as "Assault Rifles" (or "Assault Weapons") in what most of us believe is a deliberate attempt to instill fear in the public's mind about how deadly/dangerous these guns are. "Dangerous military style assault rifles..." and all that fluff.

The only really serious reason to get worked up over the nomenclature is to try and fight the media's work in stereotyping our favorite kinds of guns as somehow not appropriate for "civilian uses."

And I'm holding forth the idea that arguing that point too forcefully hurts us in the end because we're tacitly accepting that there's something illicit or inappropriate about a "civilian" owning an Assault Rifle.

Getting bent out of shape over the actual words, just for semantic propriety entirely on its own, among ourselves, is just as loony as spending your days in a clip-vs.-magazine argument or the ever-entertaining "is a revolver a pistol?" debate!

Who the flip has time for that noise?

If we correct people for calling an AR a machine gun, does that mean that we are arguing that we shouldn't be allowed to own machines?

What in the world does that even mean? You've completely lost me there. Who's arguing WHAT?

 

[Warp]

What? No they aren't! The only reason to care what folks call them is that the media portrays Ar-15s (and AKs, etc.) as "Assault Rifles" (or "Assault Weapons") in what most of us believe is a deliberate attempt to instill fear in the public's mind about how deadly/dangerous these guns are. "Dangerous military style assault rifles..." and all that fluff.

The only really serious reason to get worked up over the nomenclature is to try and fight the media's work in stereotyping our favorite kinds of guns as somehow not appropriate for "civilian uses."

And I'm holding forth the idea that arguing that point too forcefully hurts us in the end because we're tacitly accepting that there's something illicit or inappropriate about a "civilian" owning an Assault Rifle.

Getting bent out of shape over the actual words, just for semantic propriety entirely on its own, among ourselves, is just as loony as spending your days in a clip-vs.-magazine argument or the ever-entertaining "is a revolver a pistol?" debate!

Who the flip has time for that noise?

I like to be correct. Not wrong. I like to use the proper term. I won't call an AR15-style rifle feeding device a clip, because it isn't. I won't call a 20 round magazine for said-rifle high capacity either, because it isn't.

And if this thread's topic was about what to call these magazines, I would argue that we shouldn't call 20 round AR/M4 style magazines high capacity because that is wrong.

If this thread was about what tires (rubber) to put on your car and people wanted to call those things wheels, I would argue why they are wrong.

Some people, like myself, simply like to use words and terms accurately and correctly, and not just because of politics.

...although on the topics generally covered on forums like THR, there ends up being a political component much of the time, whether we like it or not.

What in the world does that even mean? You've completely lost me there. Who's arguing WHAT?

I don't know who it is, but they are apparently arguing what you talked about here:

I just dread the day when we're fighting to finally repeal the NFA and the antis are tossing at us, "But you said you just wanted those safe semi-autos that AREN'T deadly Assault Rifles!!!" Then we'll be kicking ourselves for making such a flaming big deal out of the happy switch.

 

[Sam1911]

I like to be correct. Not wrong. I like to use the proper term. I won't call an AR15-style rifle feeding device a clip, because it isn't. I won't call a 20 round magazine for said-rifle high capacity either, because it isn't.

Great! Me too.

And if this thread's topic was about what to call these magazines, I would argue that we shouldn't call 20 round AR/M4 style magazines high capacity because that is wrong.

Wouldn't 20s be "low-capacity?" Or "modest-capacity?"

I don't know who it is, but they are apparently arguing what you talked about here:

I think maybe you misunderstood my point. That's ok.

 

[Greg528iT]

Let's face it people, the things are referred to as Assault Rifles because that's what we gun afficianados called them 20 years ago...and felt no shame or embarassment about it...it was an incorrect term to describe the civilian versions of the real assault rifles. It was ages before that was picked up by the media

.

Said well..

As Well as everything Sam has said.

he knows better and doesn't care

Here is what I KNOW.. BAFTEA has one definition. Many people here support that lone singular definition. That does not change the fact that a MAJORITY off people do NOT follow that exact definition. I kept it going to point out how futile screaming about 1 definition is. My vocabulary is broad and yet can be very specific or accurate. You must realize that definitions and meanings change with the mass of the people. You don't see me getting red faced over what people call my horseless carriage.

 

[Sam1911]

Here is what I KNOW.. BAFTEA has one definition.

Actually, the BATFE doesn't enter into it. The laws they enforce do not define an Assault Rifle in any way. A true Assault Rifle would be classified as a "Machine Gun" under Title II of the National Firearms Act.

A standard semi-auto AR-15 is just a rifle, to them.

"Assault Rifle" is a term of art within the firearms and military fields. It does indeed have a specific meaning and its meaning has not changed in those circles since it was first applied in the '40s to an automatic carbine firing an intermediate-power cartridge.

Many people here support that lone singular definition. That does not change the fact that a MAJORITY off people do NOT follow that exact definition.

Which isn't to say that any of us should lower our standards and repeat the error. Just as there's no real good (and possibly some bad) in strident and vociferous correcting of others as though some crucial factor depended on it, there's also no benefit to anyone in being sloppy ourselves in how we speak.

It is a good general practice, as a technical adept, to speak precisely if you are able. And it isn't precise or technically correct to refer to a semi-automatic rifle as an "Assault Rifle" just because a million dolts and the Urban Dictionary don't know better.



(If you don't consider yourself a subject matter expert at some level, then eschewing the slang terms probably seems odd. In that case, grab up yo shotty and stuff a clip in it and bust some caps. We'll gather what you meant eventually.)

 

[Warp]

An AR15/M4 style semi automatic rifle is not an assault rifle.

A magazine is not a clip.

I don't have too hands.

u and r and y are not words.

I refuse to use 'there' incorrect crap simply because so many other people do so.

If you want to incorrectly call it an assault rifle, go for it. But don't continue an argument in which you try to convince us of why it is not wrong.

 

[chicharrones]

Geez, Greg5281T . . .

I get the feeling you personally have called an AR an Assault Rifle for many years. It's like you were listening from the other side of the gun rights fence back when the press and antis were out to scare the unknowing into their way of thinking.

The press and antis mistook AR for Assault Rifle and ran with it. People without firearms knowledge didn't have Wikepedia to fact check it back then. Plus, a lot of gun owners themselves didn't like the looks of the AR back then either, which biased their opinions of the AR.

I sure didn't expect a fellow gun owner on a firearms forum to insist to other gun owners that we own assault rifles, all because of the other side's definition of what the Armalite/Colt type rifle is.

Just because the other side is wrong doesn't mean we have to use the same term.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Rename your own firearms as you will, but call them by their proper name otherwise.

My wife owns a Savage Mark II-F .22LR bolt action with a black synthetic stock and detachable magazine. Nearly any variation of this description accurately enough describes it for what it is, such as ".22 bolt action" or "Savage bolt action".

However, around the house it's the "Evil Black Assault Rifle", in sarcastic hommage to anti-gunners and the qualifying black synthetic stock.


An AR-15 with whatever additional descriptors is exactly that...an "AR-15" followed by the descriptors. It's not an "assault rifle". Correct people accordingly and carry on smartly.

Don't play the semantics game that the anti-gunners are playing...call it like it is and show them up for the inaccurate stupidity of their comments and be done with it. Those that are hard-line anti-gunners aren't likely to change anyway; but those who AREN'T hard-line about their beliefs will readily enough see the fallicies when they're pointed out.

 

[Greg528iT]

I get the feeling you personally have called an AR an Assault Rifle for many years.

I did and will continue. I picked it up from my father in law, Korean War Era Vet, who had NO use for AR15 "type weapons" or AKs. He was one of the staunchest NRA members anyone has ever met.

NOW, that being said, I have no problem with someone lawfully obtaining one. If you put the select fire switch back on, I still have no problem with personal ownership. I do call it what it is. Just as I would call my 1911 (clone) a "combat pistol". I also call it a 1911, even though it is NOT a Military issue 1911 (including Colt, Springfield, Singer etc)

I seem to get in trouble when I quote people..

the BATFE doesn't enter into it.

I do NOT use the term carelessly, vague or sloppily.

OK. so.. you WIN.. Assault Rifle is forever banned from this earth, POOF magic. So lets make up a new phrase. "Patriot Rifle" sounds good right. Like Freedom Fries. Last week when I was playing golf with the gentleman from Canada and somehow he brought up guns.. He would be no less scared of a "Patriot Rifle" then he would be an "Assault Rifle". He'd have learned the new vernacular, applied it to the pictures in his head as to what ugly black weapons were and now someone is on a web forum whining that we shouldn't use the term Patriot Rifle.. it's the evil media's attempt to scare people.

Assault I think it's a good, descriptive term. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assault

 

[Warp]

Except that if the definition of the term patriot rifle is "semi automatic removable magazine fed rifle", it would be correct.

The term "assault rifle" requires that it be select fire, which a semi automatic is not.

We do not object to you incorrectly using the term assault rifle because we are afraid of what people think when they hear that term, we object because that term is wrong in the manner that you are applying it.

 

[Mitlov]

Let's not call them "patriot rifles" or "freedom rifles." That's corny and the spin attempt is obvious, just like with "freedom fries" (and a term a friend of mine coined, calling French toast "patriot bread-waffles").

I still think "tactical rifle" is a good term for AR-platform rifles, AK-platform rifles, and modern bullpup rifles. Does anyone here disagree that that's an accurate and judgment-free term for the genre of rifles at issue?

 

[stressed]

How come assault pistols don't get any love.

 

[Sam1911]

Because except in Maryland, no such thing exists!

 

[Bruno2]

I don't Very much like when an attorney advises you not to apologize. That would be an admission of guilt and the antis would run with it.

 

[Nickel Plated]

Actually an AR-15 is an assault rifle.

The term AR-15 is what Stoner called his design. It applied to all rifles of that design, both select-fire and semi-only. The original design was select-fire and Stoner called it the AR-15, Armalite then made a semi-only model for the civilian market, which was just a variant of what was still an AR-15, just one lacking the full-auto function.

Want proof? Look at the early M16s used in Vietnam. What did they have stamped on the magwell? "AR15", because that's what they are. The terms M16 and M4 only came about once the military started to seriously adopt them for service and decided they needed a standard military designation for them.

However the "brand" name is still AR-15, whether it's semi or select fire.

Edit: BTW, I love how no one gets this worked up about the naming of AKs. Regardless if it's select-fire or semi-only, made in Russia, Egypt, Romania, China or Durkadurkastan. Everyone just calls it an AK47 and nobody bats an eye. Despite the fact that there's really a pretty minuscule amount of actual AK47s in the world now.

 

[Warp]

Actually an AR-15 is an assault rifle.

The term AR-15 is what Stoner called his design. It applied to all rifles of that design, both select-fire and semi-only. The original design was select-fire and Stoner called it the AR-15, Armalite then made a semi-only model for the civilian market, which was just a variant of what was still an AR-15, just one lacking the full-auto function.

Want proof? Look at the early M16s used in Vietnam. What did they have stamped on the magwell? "AR15", because that's what they are. The terms M16 and M4 only came about once the military started to seriously adopt them for service and decided they needed a standard military designation for them.

However the "brand" name is still AR-15, whether it's semi or select fire.

Edit: BTW, I love how no one gets this worked up about the naming of AKs. Regardless if it's select-fire or semi-only, made in Russia, Egypt, Romania, China or Durkadurkastan. Everyone just calls it an AK47 and nobody bats an eye. Despite the fact that there's really a pretty minuscule amount of actual AK47s in the world now.

That's because you aren't comparing apples to apples.

Calling all of those rifles AK's or AK47's is like calling a S&W M&P15 an AR15. Nobody makes a big deal about that, right?

 

[happygeek]

You understand that the AR-15 is just a SUBSET of all Assault Rifles. I'd put M1 in there as well, but the term Assault really didn't come into play until the Vietnam war.

?

The M1 Carbine was a PDW before the concept of the PDW was defined. The term "assault rifle" came into play when Hitler named the Sturmgewehr 44.

Arguably the M16 was no more designed to assault something than the M1 Garand or the M1903 were.

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

I mean... cant anything be an assault anything... for instance "man, i really destroyed that ice cream with my assault spoon!" Perhaps maybe even. "The sister was attacked by a roving group of assault babies!"... that sounds horrifying... anyway... my point here is were not arguing legal definitions... youre arguing semantics and cologuialisms... oh well... im going to rest my head on my assault pillow now and go to sleep.. goodnight thr...

 

[Black Butte]

An AR15/M4 style semi automatic rifle is not an assault rifle.

...

I don't have too hands.

u and r and y are not words.

I refuse to use 'there' incorrect crap simply because so many other people do so.

Actually, if you're trying to be grammatically correct, "AR15/M4-style semi-automatic rifle" is hyphenated.