Restoring an old gun; why so controversial?

[cfullgraf]

In my opinion, an unrestored gun in top originsl condition is very valuable.

But a properly restored gun is valuable as well. A well restored gun with proper parts should be desirable.

In the 2000’s, I was into Garand collecting. By this time, correct grade Garands (originally period correct parts) were few and far between but folks would go on quests to find parts that may have been installed on a Garand of a certain serial number range.

Not necessarily a bad thing overall but folks got a bit rabid over the process.

Personally, I like my CMP Specials over my Service Grade Garands. The Service Special grades are like new rifles while the Service Grades are well used examples of Garands.

Now, my first Garand is from Nov, 1941 and was last rebuilt by Red River Arsenal. I’m keeping it as is as it has some identifiable history.

At a time when IHC Garands were few and far between, I found a rebuilt example at a gun show. I bought it because I was worried about getting an IHC Garand. It looks nice. A few months later, some CMP IHC Garands became available. I obtained a Service Grade. A nice rifle but a bit rougher than the rebuild. I won’t part with either.

So, I feel some folks go a bit overboard about restored rifles but when done properly, historic firearms that are restored have a place in the collecting world.

Besides, I know of a number of classic cars that began their restoration with only the number plate.

 

[sgt127]

Generally speaking. Having a gun refinished does not increase its collector value. So, folks are generally dissuaded.

In your case, it’s a $800 gun mint. Maybe $450 (as just a used gun before the fire) and, a $350 gun now after he fire damage.

Refinished, it’s maybe a $500 gun. So, you are spending 1.5 times more than it’s worth to get it refinished.

(I’m really kinda spitballing values here, hopefully, you get the idea though)

But. All that is a moot point if YOU want the gun to look like when your dad bought it new.

In that case, you have increased its value to you, so, go for it.

Some guns, the marks tell the story. They ARE the finish the gun earned. If I had General Pattons Registered Magnum, it would be insane to buff off the handling marks and reblue it. It’s the wear and tear that General Patton put on the gun.

From a monetary standpoint, refinishing is generally a losing proposition.

From a historical standpoint, it’s an awful thing to do.

You are not concerned about the monetary value. And, other than to you, it’s not a historical gun.

 

[tark]

It did not look great but had no pitting and before I gave it to my son, I did some work to it, only good hobby time invested. Better than flying to Shanghai for a sales meeting .
View attachment 1157076
View attachment 1157077

That is some damn fine "hobby work." I have two C-96s ; one never fired and one fired a LOT!! That one is my "shooter grade" gun It looks about as rough as your gun before your "hobby work." I'm guessing you are well aware of how important strong hammer and bolt springs are on these guns. I'm guessing you are also aware that these guns, in good condition, can easily and safely shoot 7.62X25 Tokarev ammo. C-96s were chambered in the 9X25 Mauser round (128 gr. @ 1360 FPS ) That cartridge made modern .38 super ammo look weak and was loaded to higher pressures. Too bad it never caught on...

 

[sgt127]

Company in Florida. Fords refinishing. They get a lot of praise.

I checked out their website. This were photos I snagged of their “Master reblue and nickel”.

I was. Appalled.

Those guns are absolutely ruined.

 

[tark]

View attachment 1157113 View attachment 1157114 View attachment 1157115 Company in Florida. Fords refinishing. They get a lot of praise.

I checked out their website. This were photos I snagged of their “Master reblue and nickel”.

I was. Appalled.

Those guns are absolutely ruined.

It took a while to reply to these pictures. I had to stop first. It is obvious that that company has a baboon (s) handling the polishing chores. It looks like he went heavy handed with a floppy loose wheel and washed out every pin and screw hole, while rounding the square edges. He nearly removed the "R" on that Ruger. It looks like he polished the side plate on that Police Positive separate from the gun and rounded off the sharp edges. Then he did the same thing to the frame. More

 

[sgt127]

https://www.fordsguns.com/

104 years of combined experience….

(look through the galleries. I don’t want anyone to think I’m making this up)

They can certainly get things shiny. But, everything looks like a River rock. Every corner is round. Polishing all the parts separately, leaving those enormous gaps, is what I always considered the sign of a horrible reblue.

That rounding of the side plate near the hammer.

 

[JDGray]

Sorry for your loss
As others have stated, do what you feel you need to do.

 

[hoardingthemanual]

Good discussion on this topic here

 

[WVRJ]

Condolences for losing your father.I lost mine 17 years ago during one of the darkest times of my life.What I endured back then was made even worse because Dad wasn't there to give me advice or to just listen to me whine and tell me to quit looking back and go forward.
Four years ago my stepson's house was hit by lightning and was severely damaged.The insurance gave him the choice of either tearing down the remains and starting over or repairing what was left.He had it fixed,and it turned out to be a good choice.He had several guns,but all but one were in the part of the house that wasn't hurt as bad.The one that got damaged was his Colt 1911 in stainless steel.It was in a leather holster and it wasn't the fire that got it,it was the water and ash mixture that etched the steel and ruined the grips.It's his favorite pistol and he was really sad that it was so messed up.
After the fire I told him to oil the heck out of it and bring it to me the next time he came to visit.I live in WV and he's in LA.When he brought it,I told him I could fix it,but it wouldn't look like it used to look because there was just too much damage.I took it apart and did some soda blasting and some sanding and replaced the springs and the sights.I made it into a two tone color scheme with Dura-Cote,and after almost a year,I finally got it ready for him to look at.Along with the paint job,a new set of Hogue grips made it into a beautiful but different pistol.I still remember the look on his face when I carried it out to my shooting bench and gave it to him.He was thrilled with it,and when it shot it and it ran like it was supposed to.He was staying with us for two weeks,and he borrowed one of my holsters and he had that pistol with him every day and it was with him on the drive back to LA.That turned out to be the right thing to dnly the owner of the item in question is what matters.I wouldn't hesitate to have that Colt re-done.

 

[reddog81]

Generally speaking. Having a gun refinished does not increase its collector value. So, folks are generally dissuaded.

In your case, it’s a $800 gun mint. Maybe $450 (as just a used gun before the fire) and, a $350 gun now after he fire damage.

Refinished, it’s maybe a $500 gun. So, you are spending 1.5 times more than it’s worth to get it refinished.

(I’m really kinda spitballing values here, hopefully, you get the idea though)

But. All that is a moot point if YOU want the gun to look like when your dad bought it new.

In that case, you have increased its value to you, so, go for it.

Some guns, the marks tell the story. They ARE the finish the gun earned. If I had General Pattons Registered Magnum, it would be insane to buff off the handling marks and reblue it. It’s the wear and tear that General Patton put on the gun.

From a monetary standpoint, refinishing is generally a losing proposition.

From a historical standpoint, it’s an awful thing to do.

You are not concerned about the monetary value. And, other than to you, it’s not a historical gun.

I was going to say something similar but this covered what I was feeling... The values are a bit low but reasonable.

From any monetary perspective it doesn't make sense to refinish it. But if you want to spend $750 refinishing it because it's what you want then go ahead. If spending $750 makes you happy then by all means do it.

I have never had a gun restored but I have seen many posts were people regret spending the money once they get their gun back. I'd be hesitant to trust someone who says they can store the gun to like new unless they have documented examples of work they have done before. Hopefully your restoration turns out well.

 

[wolf695]

It depends on you! Are you keeping it forever, or maybe selling it later? Collectors want all original off retouching. As close as it was to start with...

 

[jar]

I see absolute nothing wrong with making something look like you want it to look or fixing things what need fixin. The last few days I've been carrying an old S&W 59 that had a lot of honest wear, mostly holster wear to the anodized aluminum frame but at the point a lot of areas were now in the white. So I've been gradually turning those areas black once again. It's slow and not great but I like the results so far.

 

[TitanicTortilini]

They can certainly get things shiny. But, everything looks like a River rock. Every corner is round. Polishing all the parts separately, leaving those enormous gaps, is what I always considered the sign of a horrible reblue.

That rounding of the side plate near the hammer.

I'm always mystified by the "restoration" videos all over the place where they'll be "restoring" something with cast frame and one of the steps is that they file down all the mold parting lines. Seems pointless.

 

[Pat Riot]

I am sorry for your loss.

It’s my opinion that you should do as you wish.

 

[Bazoo]

My condolences to you Trey.

I vote for have it refinished! Turn it into an heirloom and maybe it won't be just a rusty old gun to folks down the line.

My dad had a jet aer brand knife that was made in japan, It was a copy of a Buck 110. It was basically a step above a no name junk knife, but not as good as a Buck. I lost it when my house burnt. I held it and thought of dad. I always wished he'd left me a Buck. It reminded me that he was a drunk, and if he'd had a decent knife like a buck, he would have traded it for a couple of beers when he was down on his luck.

If you have your gun refinished, perhaps it will not be a reminder of the bad things, but of the good of your Dad.

 

[Mosin77]

Most who are purchasing a firearm, if they’re knowledgeable, will prefer the gun to be original, even if worn. They might not be in the market for a 70% gun but if given the option of buying a 70% finish gun or buying a restored example that was 99%, they’d prefer the lesser condition original.

Many newer firearms buyers will prefer the shiny look. Reblued, thoroughly sanded and stained wood, etc. They don’t have the experience to see past the shine and it looks “new,” so they might prefer it to the worn example.

In most cases financially the rebluing and wood refinish will cost more than the gun is worth (or at least more than any appreciable gain in value as a result of the procedures) and will often actually devalue the gun somewhat at the same time.

AND most gunsmiths are frankly not that good at their refinishing technique, resulting in metal surfaces with rounded edges, wallowed out depressions, telltale lines in the finish where the buffing wheel was used too aggressively…. And metal that is often proud of the wood due to excessive wood removal when sanding.

So although in theory there’s absolutely nothing wrong with a nice restoration or refinish for your favorite tool, in practice it’s usuually not advisable because it’s debatable at best whether it really improves the look, and it’s not a winning choice financially.


I suspect it wouldn’t be as universally frowned on as it is, if it were straightforward for a tired, worn gun to be buffed and reblued, and come out looking every bit as crisp as a brand new gun.

 

[Mosin77]

Common example scenarios:

A tired S&W military and police is worth about $350. John spends $350 to have it redone by an unusually competent yet affordable smith. Now it’s still worth about $350.

A well-worn Colt 1903 is worth $600. Anthony spends $175 having it redone at Bubba’s gun spa. Now it’s all dished out in some places, or blued right over the pitting, or both, and it’s worth $400 as a shooter.

A worn but unmodified, factory original Colt 1911 ( or Winchester 1892, etc) is worth about $1500. A cheap refinish is going to cost a couple hundred and be ugly, and turn that $1500 gun into a $750 gun. A Turnbull restoration, on the other hand, is going to make that gun look like a million bucks, but after spending, say, $1000, now your $1500 gun is worth, say, $2000. So from a collector/monetary standpoint it’s almost always a better idea to simply sell the piece in original condition and use the proceeds towards an original in the higher condition you want, rather than modifying a gun.

Where it might make sense is with a well-worn heirloom and you want to make it beautiful just because, or you want to patronize the true artists who can turn relatively ugly guns into art pieces. Or maybe you want a gorgeous gun and you bought or happened into a candidate for very little. One day I plan to get my Colt fully engraved. Because it’s a lot cheaper to pay a master to do the work than to buy a factory original, and because mine is a well-worn, already modified example anyway, and I didn’t give much for it. So why not?

 

[Tallball]

I still have the only firearm my dad gave me. It's a single-shot 12 gauge that probably cost $75 and has a lot of scratches dings on it from hunting. If it was actually a nice gun in the first place I might have it refinished.

 

[Coyote3855]

A person should do what they wish with their gun and money.

I inherited my dad's Colt Woodsman. He had those plastic fake stag grips on it. I found a pair of the original checkered wood grips and installed them. Then it was no longer his Woodsman. Put the plastic ones back on and gave it to his grandson.

 

[Jim Watson]

A person should do what they wish with their gun and money.

True, but if he is uncertain and asks for recommendations, he is going to get them. Unfortunately these things usually end up with every possible option. So does he simply clean it up, have it reblued, or restored to factory appearance? There are votes for all. Maybe we have at least clarified the options.

 

[jmorris]

I have spent my life modifying things and trying to put others back how they were originally.

There are two thoughts, the first being, It’s mine and I want it the way I want it. The other is I want this just how it is so I can be free to use it just as he did.

The first thing my Grandfather would do when he got a new truck, after moving the rifle from the old one to the new one, is back the two up to one another and throw the tools from the old one into the new one (first scratch is the hardest method). My Father, on the other hand, has spent countless hours dealing with anything he puts back there, keeping his truck beds in perfect condition (for whomever owns them after he’s done with it). I fall somewhere between the two but none of us were “wrong”. Just have different feelings on the subject.

If I am keeping something for the memory’s they bring to mind, I tend to not change its history/condition but that’s just one opinion and you know what they say about them…

 

[Howland937]

Late to the party here.
My condolences to you and your family Mr Veston.

My understanding is that your dad was a highly regarded member of the firearms and hunting community for several years. You're also a well regarded member here, at least in my estimation. Seems natural that firearms would be the bridge between you and the cherished memories of your dad. That in mind, I'd want to know how important a piece of that bridge is this old Colt?

If it's not that important and is just another of dad's guns that doesn't evoke any special memories, sell it as is.

If its important enough to keep it forever and pass it to another family member, restore it.

Couple things that might be worth considering:
1- obviously, condition is everything. It's current value is as a shooter. Its not a collectible now anyway.
2-Restoration may hide the scars and remove the blemishes, but it won't erase the memories....good or bad.