kBob
Member
I commented in another thread that I sometimes think it would be best if uniformed police carried classic looking DA/SA revolvers in .38 Special even today.
Someone sort of dared me to start a thread about it so here it is.
My reasoning will seem stupid to some folks and that’s fine. we are just sitting around the cracker barrel jawing and I am not yet named Emperor to simply will it so, so no threat to Static Woe.
#1. I believe a Barney Fife gun looks less threatening to the vast majority of common folks. The militarization of police is one of the reasons for the distancing of the police and other citizenry. How police look to the public IS important.
Old Bobby Peale over in England understood the Need of the Citizenry to not feel oppressed by their Government’s military forces, of course he went so far as to have Police armed only with billy clubs and a whistle, and no firearm.
Unfortunately if a cop today was using his billy and began to get the worse of things and whistled for the Hue and Cry the folks that showed up would just as likely join the bad guy as the cop.
Believe it or not Colt made a lot of money selling his 1849 .31 revolvers to pre war American police many of whom belonged to departments that did not allow a policeman to be armed with a fire arm. They liked being able to carry concealed (and against department regs) so much Colt Started his Police line on that frame.
Still the guns were in those days concealed so as to not upset the populace.
But I digress.
By the 20th Century many Police openly carried and up into the late 1980’s what most carried was a revolver.
A semi-auto matic was considered by most to be a military weapon and a weapon of war. Hollywierd even typically gave bad guys autos and good guys revolvers.
To this day there are many that see a revolver as a cop’s gun and a semi auto as a weapon of war and the revolver as a necessary thing and the semi auto as “excessive”.
Now before the LEO’s jump on my case let me say if I knew I was walking out the door now into a fight and had to have something .38 caliberish …. yes, I would personally rather tote my CZ75 than a S&W M15 Revolver…. but the whole point of policing is to serve the needs of community and not the desires of individual officers (whew, here it comes)
#2. The number of shots fired to stop a bad guy has gone up since revolver days…. and more importantly the number of MISSES has gone up. Is having more bullets flying about that missed better for the community?
Traditionally Private citizens in a “gun fight” fire less rounds than police to stop a bad guy and have fewer misses…. and as semi autos have pretty much taken over police work the numbers got worse … oddly more “civilians” (police are civilian, too) are using semi autos but still do not seem to blaze away so much as officer no longer so friendly.
If you study any sort of stressful shooting, whether shooting games or actual “combat” you will likely find that the first and second shots are most likely the ones to go where you wanted. Visit a man on man plate match some time…. sure the hot rodders never miss, but most folks have to go back for a plate, typically number three of four.
Now no one wants to send out a cop with a two shot, but for a century six was plenty.
Watch some of the officer camera films on line, you see bursts of fire with four to six shots as fast as a trigger can be pulled…. and seldom a hit.
We talk a great deal about today’s improved training and “Professionalism” but burst ofsix shots where most miss say an entire car do not look like professionally trained shooters, only shooters using “spray and pray”
Not having a 15 to 19 round magazine fed hand gun might reduce that.
#3 Todays ammunition is MUCH better than Barney’s one round of .38 Special LRN “Widow Maker”. Back when departments started going over to Semiautos most were restricted to FMJ as HP and such of the time were less than reliable with all semi autos. A.38 SPL today loaded with today’s Personal Defense Ammo is not 1Adam-12’s “Widow Maker” loaded .38.
# 4. Training flex ability.
I know “train with what you carry” but any trigger time beats NO trigger time.
Yes there are new electronic training devices but many departments are lucky to have access to older training material now stored. When I was coming along many departments did close range training with things like the Speer Plastic training round for training in such things as being attack during a traffic stop
Machines that projected moving images on a screen and one popped primed cases and the machine saw and registered where shots would have gone.
One could train with reloads that barely left the barrel on say a Hogans alley so one could concentrate on tactics more than say recoil control or sight recovery.
Revolvers gave more training options with less new equipment.
Well there I have said it and await my savaging.
Nope, not going to provide cites, this is a cracker barrel, not the reserve section of the library!
If you wish to provide cites feel free.
please keep personal attacks down to civil in case my kids are looking over my shoulders.
Have fun guys.
-kBob
Someone sort of dared me to start a thread about it so here it is.
My reasoning will seem stupid to some folks and that’s fine. we are just sitting around the cracker barrel jawing and I am not yet named Emperor to simply will it so, so no threat to Static Woe.
#1. I believe a Barney Fife gun looks less threatening to the vast majority of common folks. The militarization of police is one of the reasons for the distancing of the police and other citizenry. How police look to the public IS important.
Old Bobby Peale over in England understood the Need of the Citizenry to not feel oppressed by their Government’s military forces, of course he went so far as to have Police armed only with billy clubs and a whistle, and no firearm.
Unfortunately if a cop today was using his billy and began to get the worse of things and whistled for the Hue and Cry the folks that showed up would just as likely join the bad guy as the cop.
Believe it or not Colt made a lot of money selling his 1849 .31 revolvers to pre war American police many of whom belonged to departments that did not allow a policeman to be armed with a fire arm. They liked being able to carry concealed (and against department regs) so much Colt Started his Police line on that frame.
Still the guns were in those days concealed so as to not upset the populace.
But I digress.
By the 20th Century many Police openly carried and up into the late 1980’s what most carried was a revolver.
A semi-auto matic was considered by most to be a military weapon and a weapon of war. Hollywierd even typically gave bad guys autos and good guys revolvers.
To this day there are many that see a revolver as a cop’s gun and a semi auto as a weapon of war and the revolver as a necessary thing and the semi auto as “excessive”.
Now before the LEO’s jump on my case let me say if I knew I was walking out the door now into a fight and had to have something .38 caliberish …. yes, I would personally rather tote my CZ75 than a S&W M15 Revolver…. but the whole point of policing is to serve the needs of community and not the desires of individual officers (whew, here it comes)
#2. The number of shots fired to stop a bad guy has gone up since revolver days…. and more importantly the number of MISSES has gone up. Is having more bullets flying about that missed better for the community?
Traditionally Private citizens in a “gun fight” fire less rounds than police to stop a bad guy and have fewer misses…. and as semi autos have pretty much taken over police work the numbers got worse … oddly more “civilians” (police are civilian, too) are using semi autos but still do not seem to blaze away so much as officer no longer so friendly.
If you study any sort of stressful shooting, whether shooting games or actual “combat” you will likely find that the first and second shots are most likely the ones to go where you wanted. Visit a man on man plate match some time…. sure the hot rodders never miss, but most folks have to go back for a plate, typically number three of four.
Now no one wants to send out a cop with a two shot, but for a century six was plenty.
Watch some of the officer camera films on line, you see bursts of fire with four to six shots as fast as a trigger can be pulled…. and seldom a hit.
We talk a great deal about today’s improved training and “Professionalism” but burst ofsix shots where most miss say an entire car do not look like professionally trained shooters, only shooters using “spray and pray”
Not having a 15 to 19 round magazine fed hand gun might reduce that.
#3 Todays ammunition is MUCH better than Barney’s one round of .38 Special LRN “Widow Maker”. Back when departments started going over to Semiautos most were restricted to FMJ as HP and such of the time were less than reliable with all semi autos. A.38 SPL today loaded with today’s Personal Defense Ammo is not 1Adam-12’s “Widow Maker” loaded .38.
# 4. Training flex ability.
I know “train with what you carry” but any trigger time beats NO trigger time.
Yes there are new electronic training devices but many departments are lucky to have access to older training material now stored. When I was coming along many departments did close range training with things like the Speer Plastic training round for training in such things as being attack during a traffic stop
Machines that projected moving images on a screen and one popped primed cases and the machine saw and registered where shots would have gone.
One could train with reloads that barely left the barrel on say a Hogans alley so one could concentrate on tactics more than say recoil control or sight recovery.
Revolvers gave more training options with less new equipment.
Well there I have said it and await my savaging.
Nope, not going to provide cites, this is a cracker barrel, not the reserve section of the library!
If you wish to provide cites feel free.
please keep personal attacks down to civil in case my kids are looking over my shoulders.
Have fun guys.
-kBob
, as of maybe 10 years ago, the Texas State Police still wore tan uniforms and a Cavalry hat. And mirrored ray-bans.
