Return to Mayberry (Service Revolvers)

[Pat Riot]

In keeping with the initial spirit of this thread…

I used to shoot competitions with a lot of police officers back in the 80’s when many carried S&W model 19s in Los Angeles county, CA. I recall a few the officers switching to carrying S&W 39s and SWAT members being allowed to carry 1911s. I have watched over the years as police equipment and uniforms have changed.
As much as I love revolvers and would love the environs of this country to be the way it used to be when an officer could feel safe carrying a 6 shot revolver I know it will never happen.

 

[jmr40]

The militarization of police is one of the reasons for the distancing of the police and other citizenry. How police look to the public IS important.

Forty years ago when LE started transitioning to semi's from revolvers this MIGHT have been a relevant argument. But not today. The public expects LE to be armed with modern firearms.

 

[wcwhitey]

“As much as I love revolvers and would love the environs of this country to be the way it used to be when an officer could feel safe carrying a 6 shot revolver I know it will never happen.”

Statement of the day award! Sums it up!

 

[Riomouse911]

I do and did take pride in my appearance including grooming and fitness. I found it always helped when first opinions were important. Of course that’s not to say a Texas Ranger would dress like I did, but they do have a sharp dress code of starched shirts, nice jeans and well shaped hats. And one can also mention usually nice leather gear! Appearance matters and if you want the public to take you seriously one should take ones appearance as such.

True. Look sharp, feel sharp, act sharp.

I am not a fan of the tattooed, bearded, slouchy look. It looks shabby and just doesn’t strike me as professional at all.

But…

But the kids today are. Try hiring with a strict code. Sounds easy, but its not. Agencies are trying to attract those who will fill their ranks and almost all 20-30 something folks aren’t buying the stuff that our parents sold us anymore. If you don’t offer something they’ll nibble on, they will go somewhere else that does. (I am not God’s gift, but I have been involved in the hiring process for my agency for the past ten years. I have seen a ton of changes. Some I like, a lot I don’t.)

As for all the crap carried on the belt, here is a twist; in Ca you can now be prosecuted for NOT having or trying other means of force in a lethal force incident. (Exceptions apply, but the onus is on you to articulate why YOU didn’t utilize it if you didn’t.) Sorry if it offends someone, but I am wearing my spray, baton, taser etc. when I have to work a detail involving public contact because I don’t want to have to go through the wringer if I didn’t have it and get involved in a shooting.

I am really scratching my head at the gist of the original post. I know this is a gun forum, but regarding the tools of the trade do you feel the same way about construction material advances or medical treatment improvements? Should those jobs go back to using 1900’s-era tools and technology?

Just wondering… stay safe.

 

[film495]

I think it was the Newhall incident that led to semi-auto. Kind of interesting, cause if the police involved in the incident had say shotguns in the car, just as a protocol thing, they had an idea of what they were responding to, so - really if you are after mad men, do you want a Glock, or a Mini-14 or a Shotgun, or something more serious. I don't really care what they carry, it just seems when decisions are made on stuff like this, everyone forgets all the other variables, and - everyone just gets bigger handguns that have bigger mags.

If we changed policy every time a police officer's life ended during his shift, we'd be busy. Used to be a big deal, I guess it is, but - it seems like there is a tragedy every few days of one kind or another, going on years now. I don't think we'd much blink an eye at a Newhall or Miami Dade incident today, the news cycle would be done with it in a day.

 

[Fooey]

NO!.

The equipment is for two purposes:

1. To take suspects into custody and to enforce compliance (TASER, baton)
2. For self defense and fort he lawful defense of others (firearms, ammunition, mace)

You exaggerated the ammunition carried, and you failed to mention radio, cuffs, and a flashlight.

Kleanbore, you are reading too literally and missing my point.
I may have exaggerated the AR caliber but many cops do carry that many mags and more if they have on their vest with mag pockets in it. I also didn't mention a body worn camera, ankle revolver. Or the fact that a homeless man can have 4 or 5 police vehicles with 6-7 police for panhandling, etc. The people see this stuff as abnormal.
The point being that my description of them was how the general public see them. We know the police think it looks normal. But to the public the regular patrol officer shouldn't look like special forces and nor do they think police need retired combat troop carriers, etc, paid for with tax dollars.
This is not a flame the cops post. It is just to point out how out of control the people see the militarization of the police is and how blind the police are to it. And the divide gets larger. Have a great day.
Now that I think of it. I've never thought about building an AR-458Win. Has anyone done that yet?

 

[The Glockodile]

@Fooey

Does this pic convey your thoughts?



EDIT: Apparently, it's already been written about.

 

[kBob]

Kleenbore,

I did say no cites around the cracker barrel but for you…. check out 40 or 50 years of Uniform Crime Reports, those figures used to be in them but as they got more embarrassing they got harder to find.

easing back over nearer the Franklin Stove now to better watch the action at the Cracker barrel with out getting drawn in.

-kBob

 

[Fooey]

View attachment 1090136

@Fooey

Does this pic convey your thoughts?

LOL, Sort of. It shows the progression to 2011. Now forward 11 years and you will see full marine combat uniforms with bloused combat boots looking just like they walked out of Iraq in desert brown camo. And they patrol out towns like that and wonder why there is a disconnect. I really don't think it is the officers fault, I think it is the city governments that decide what image they want to portray.

 

[Don Van Winkle]

While in the Navy for 30 years we carried Glocks, Barettas, and most everything elsa auto. I retired and got back to basics. I love revolvers! I carry my .38 SPL every day and I feel totaly confident it my ability to put down a threat. Not saying I am the best shot but I am confident in my revolver. Don't need more than 2-3 shots so why carry 15+ rounds when most won't be used?

 

[Southerner up North]

Delete

 

[Fooey]

View attachment 1090136

@Fooey

Does this pic convey your thoughts?

View attachment 1090177

EDIT: Apparently, it's already been written about.

Yup! Those are the guys that steal your vacation money in the airport under civil asset forfeiture.

 

[Kleanbore]

.... Now forward 11 years and you will see full marine combat uniforms with bloused combat boots looking just like they walked out of Iraq in desert brown camo. And they patrol out towns like that and wonder why there is a disconnect. I really don't think it is the officers fault, I think it is the city governments that decide what image they want to portray

"Image"? This is not a fashion show, nor is it costume design for a stage play, a movies set, or airline flight attendants.

Determining what law enforcement officers carry starts with the definition of their mission, which is done by the three branches of local government, under ground-rules set forth by higher courts under the Fourth Amendment. From that, it goes to the determination of their mission needs. The next step involves the establishment of operational requirements.

The determination of equipment load-out specifications is a function of all of that. It also takes into account the sucesses and failures of relevant experience; simulation exercises; the physical capabilities of personnel; and training realities.

To people who understand that, it is crystal clear that sending officers out against heavily armed violent criminals with a Detective Special and without radios, helicopters, drones, TASERS. and body armor is not a viable strategy.

Those who do not may remain in their nostalgic worlds of fantasy.

 

[Tallball]

I'm a revolver guy. That's what I carry. That's what's sitting on my nightstand right now.

The facts don't matter. If all of the numbers and statistics showed that our LEO's were just as safe and effective with revolvers, it would still be a no-go.

As Riomouse mentioned, new LEO's have to be hired every day across the country. Finding qualified recruits is not easy. It would be a LOT harder if police officers carried revolvers and hoodlums carried whatever they wanted. Would a lot of young people want to become LEO's if they felt that they would always be outgunned by the opposition?

Same with existing officers. They need to be able to feel confident that they are carrying modern, effective equipment. I worked with several LEO's over the years. All of them were very confident officers. I think they would have felt less confident if they felt that their equipment was outdated and ineffective.

The facts don't matter. LEO's need to feel that they have modern effective equipment. If that means that they unnecessarily carry handguns with 20 round magazines, so be it. As a civilian, I want them to feel as safe and comfortable and confident as possible.

 

[DeepSouth]

I have to admit I like the logic of the OP, I also admit I don’t know anywhere near enough about policing to be a judge if such matters. I’d also say police probably wouldn’t make the best judgments in this area either, they’d be extremely biased to one line of thinking. Seems to me like a well informed, unbiased third party would be the most likely to have a realistic view…..but good luck finding that guy, if he exists.

I tend to say it should be up the individual officer what he carries as a sidearm, he is after all the one who has to use it and the most likely to be affected by the decision. He wants carry a PMR30…. Okay…. A 500 S&W….. fine by me.

 

[Kleanbore]

I tend to say it should be up the individual officer what he carries as a sidearm,

We are not speaking of a town marshal in Abilene.

Consider the need for team effectiveness; for minimizing legal liability; for interchangeability; for economies of scale.....

 

[wcwhitey]

We are not speaking of a town marshal in Abilene.

Consider the need for team effectiveness; for minimizing legal liability; for interchangeability; for economies of scale.....

Also consider the wonderful world of liability! Large departments test and find both handguns and ammunition that fit the bill. Small departments without budgets follow trends best they can. It’s just easier to justify what the “FBI” or similar uses or states works in the world of the courtroom. Tasers and Cameras have replaced night sticks, pepper spray still fairly standard. I started when only about half those suited up wore body armor. Good thing though is that a flashlight is tiny now compared to the 3D Maglite. The pictures of riot gear are not what one would wear daily. A helmet and shield are probably fairly standard and have been for many decades. Riot gear is one of those things that is probably more needed these days. Police are generally in a defensive situation unlike the old days of hickory sticks and tear gas. If I was gonna stand there and take abuse I get all the gear, I would add bubble wrap.

 

[DeepSouth]

We are not speaking of a town marshal in Abilene.

Consider the need for team effectiveness; for minimizing legal liability; for interchangeability; for economies of scale.....

I didn’t have teams in mind, I was thinking more about the county sheriffs and city departments. You know, rural folks.
I can see where big city folks and teams would have different needs that, as well a host of other groups I can’t think of.

Like I said, I’m not the guy ask about these things.

 

[Peakbagger46]

.357 Magnum, perhaps. But I think there's a defensible case to go back to the revolver. Marshall and Sanow's books refer to revolver-armed LEOs delivering better accuracy than people armed with self-loading pistols. A lot depends on the level of training...panicked emptying of a high-capacity magazine in the general direction of the target seems to be commonplace these days. With a wheelgun, you have to stop every six rounds.

Kindly note that the French GSGN counter-terror shooters are using revolvers. One perfect shot...

Well…. If the FRENCH are carrying revolvers it must be a great idea lol.

 

[ThomasT]

Gotta keep up with the bad guys... Would you want a revolver going up against a guy with an AK?

I wouldn't want a Glock with a 30 round mag against a guy armed with an AK. On the other hand Evan Marshall once stated he would rather face the typical "Street Creep" armed with an Uzi than a PPC champ armed with a 38 snub. So I guess it would depend on who was carrying the AK. A guy who knows how to shoot or a wanna be armed with his new toy?

I do agree with one point the OP made though. Street Tactical Gear, Beards, BDU’s and other high speed low drag outfits worn by your regular Officer Friendly on Patrol. Not necessary, sloppy and unprofessional in my humble opinion. A Detective should wear a nice suit, a cop a proper cleaned and pressed uniform. A hat is a display of authority wear it. I am just old school that way. The new trend of patrolling like your A Special Operator looks like crap. A Cop is a Civil Servant not a Navy SEAL. JMHO

Just a couple of days ago saw a local cop with a heavy beard. I thought he looked dirty and unprofessional. The last ticket I got about 10 years ago the cop that gave it to me had full tats on his arms and a shaved head. He looked like a gang banger. He was courteous though. Looks really do matter.

I have mentioned before my uncle was a cop. Growing up I could go into stores like a hardware store of convenience store and when the clerk learned my last name they would say they knew my uncle. I have a very rare last name. They knew who my uncle was because he got around and met people. I rode with him in his patrol car a couple of times and he did not ride around with the windows up. They were down so he could here what was going on around him. He got into his one shoot out because he had got out of his patrol car and was walking into a liquor store to check on the store when he walked into a family dispute that turned deadly. He fired one shot from his model 15 after he was shot at twice first. He killed his man with a RN lead bullet.

 

[buck460XVR]

But I see the continued militarization of the
police yet they are NOT SOLDIERS. And they are not all
trained so-called SWAT members either.

It is not accurate to characterize the carry of a sidearm and ammunition, and of a carbine and shotgun in the patrol car, as "militarization".

Cops always had a sidearm and ammo, and have for decades carried a rifle/shotgun in the patrol car. But they did not always dress in full combat gear, carry shields and wear Wiley X Sabers everywhere they went. Heck, even our resource office at the local elementary schools in in full riot gear as she waddles down the hall. I can see now why they shoot instead of chasing suspects....they can't run. Young kids look at them like Robo-Cop because they don't see a face.....and we wonder why there is no "rapport" between LEOs and Youth anymore.

Videos of the Texas School shooting(Robb Elementary School in Uvalde County) shows a myriad of LEOs in full riot gear, yet none of them had the testicles to advance on the shooter for 74 minutes. Why have all that armor and protection and not use it to save innocent children. The ultimate testament was watching one officer in full riot gear using the hand sanitizer in the hall. Apparently, his clean hands were worth more than the lives of those 19 kids and their 2 teachers. Don't want to risk getting Covid during a shootout you know. Then there was the medical examiners report of Jayland Walkers death. An unarmed man that was shot 46 times because he didn't stop for a traffic stop. I'm guessing because of so many others before him, he knew that stopping was a death sentence. These are the images that are instilled in many folk's minds.

Can we go back to Barney and his trusty .38 with one bullet? Nope ain't gonna happen. While I agree, Cops do need to protect themselves against heavily armed BGs, and this takes equipment equal to their foe's, it is not necessary for a Resource Officer in a 1st grade classroom, nor is a Bonnie and Clyde type finale needed for a unarmed Door-Dash driver.

 

[Kleanbore]

Can we go back to Barney and his trusty .38 with one bullet? Nope ain't gonna happen. While I agree, Cops do need to protect themselves against heavily armed BGs, and this takes equipment equal to their foe's, it is not necessary for a Resource Officer in a 1st grade classroom, nor is a Bonnie and Clyde type finale needed for a unarmed Door-Dash driver

Okay.

 

[Archie]

I think it was the Newhall incident that led to semi-auto. Kind of interesting, cause if the police involved in the incident had say shotguns in the car, just as a protocol thing, they had an idea of what they were responding to, so - really if you are after mad men, do you want a Glock, or a Mini-14 or a Shotgun, or something more serious. I don't really care what they carry, it just seems when decisions are made on stuff like this, everyone forgets all the other variables, and - everyone just gets bigger handguns that have bigger mags.

I remember the Newhall shooting incident. I was just about to released from active duty and was stationed at MCB Camp Pendleton, CA (just down the road a bit).
The incident has been analyzed many times, but the bare facts are two villains were involved along with four Highway Patrol officers - in two waves of two. The four officers were killed on location, the two villains fled the scene and were shortly thereafter neutralized, one by capture and one villain killing himself when trapped.
It is interesting to me to note the two villains were not injured in the encounter. (Nothing reported, anyway.) All four officers were armed with double action revolvers. All four officers fired all six rounds - initial loading - without effect. At least two and I recall all four officers were attempting to reload their revolvers when killed.
The villains were armed with several firearms. A Smith & Wesson model 39 and a Ruger .44 Magnum semi-automatic rifle were the only two semi-automatic weapons in hand. They also had several revolvers and an M1903 rifle.
Must was made of the officers being killed while reloading. Nothing was ever said about NONE OF THEM making any of their first six - each - shots count. I'm not attempting to disgrace any of them; they were at place of duty and attempting to carry out said duty. Nothing of cowardice or slovenly action applies. However, a different weapon would not have made any real difference.
The Miami-Dade shooting gave me a chilling deja-vu feeling. Same song, second verse.
I will add it seems the villains were ready to kill anyone in their way. The officers were ready to arrest someone. The difference in mind set is horrifying. Higher capacity arms do not change that aspect.

If we changed policy every time a police officer's life ended during his shift, we'd be busy. Used to be a big deal, I guess it is, but - it seems like there is a tragedy every few days of one kind or another, going on years now. I don't think we'd much blink an eye at a Newhall or Miami Dade incident today, the news cycle would be done with it in a day.

You're likely right. The deaths of police (or other law enforcement) officers does not play to the 'woke' herd.

 

[JERRY]

you want me to run to a shots fired call with only a handgun, its gonna be a G17. you can keep your K frame masterpeice.

 

[Peakbagger46]

So, from the comfort of Cracker Barrel you wish me (patrol deputy in a county with lots of guns and violent crime) to strap on a six shooter? Please leave it alone and go back to your biscuits and collard greens.

“You sleep soundly in your bed because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”

kbob, I really like revolvers and shoot them well (and carry a Jframe as backup every shift) but they would put us cops in danger in today’s world. As far as accuracy goes, the RMR dot on my issued pistol allows for not only threat focused fire but easy headshots out to 25y.

Not trying to be offensive, I like almost all of your posts.