rifle or shotgun for HD?

[Geronimo45]

Overpenetration might be useful in some instances. Say you're running from a BG, and shut the door. He starts trying to break said door in. A fusilade of .223 or .30 carbine would be nice. Of course a 12 gauge slug could do just as well, though more slowly. Shorter weapons are easier to wield in close quarters than big shotguns, though.

Edited: Just saw previous post. +1 on the bayonet.

 

[Heavy Metal Hero]

Tyesai, if I had even 1% chance to maim or kill my neighbor, I wouldn't. So your theory of how it would "never" happen is ridiculous. I don't want to argue about it, but I wouldn't want you near me if you had a firearm.

EDIT: Not sure but are slugs effective unless you have a rifled barrel?

 

[tyesai]

Heavy Metal Hero
I never said it doesn't, wouldn't or couldn't, I simply said that the chance of it happening was about the same as winning the lotto, wife killed by a sasquatch type creature, and getting some pitty love from Angelina.

I still want some links to overpentration killing someone. Not just one or two either, a dozen. It just isn't that common, it would be of more concern in an apartment complex but even then, I would change my story to winning one million dollars, wife and children dying in a fatal car crash, and the ugly girl and hot girl at work doubling up on me for pitty sex.

 

[Flak_Jakett]

I think Jeff has allready stated the answer to your question. I know that either gun will do the job of defending the home. Whatever weapon you are most comfortable with is the weapon you will have the most success with. I know the ins and outs of an M4 and have cleared many many buildings with one so that is what I would use for home defense.

I agree with the overpenetration factor. People seem to think walls are safe to hide behind. Most walls are actually only good for concealment, not cover. If I can take a guy out through the wall before he ever sees me then that is what I will do.

tyesai wrote:

Not just one or two either, a dozen.

Everyone knows that overpenetration happens. I have heard of many stories. If I wanted to spend the time to research it and then get back to you I know that I could. But I don't want to spend the time. I'll just say that one or two is one or two too many. Just cause it is unlikely doen't mean that you should'nt prevent it. It is your responsibility as a human being to make sure that your actions don't cause harm to innocent people. I most likely will never need to use my CCW, but that doesn't mean I am not gonna carry it anymore. Only a fool trusts his future completely to fate, a wise man leaves his future to fate as little as he can.

 

[tyesai]

Stephen M

Sorry if this turns into a hijack

 

[tyesai]

Flak Jakket said

I have heard of many stories.

Me too, I'll do my own dogpile search and see what I come up with and post my results in a different thread. I bet what I find is negligible.

 

[Soybomb]

Can you hit them nine times in a row in a milli second?

Doing a quick dogpile search I found that 00 buck shot weighs 54gr and there is 9 of them coming out of one barrel. Also doing a quick search I found lots of .223 ammo comes in 55gr bullets.

Nope but I also can't miss 9 shots from my magazine at once either. 1 shot, 1 person, I'll buy into shotgun as being the better possiblity. For hitting 2-3 home invaders as quickly as possible I'll take a rifle. I don't plan on every shot being a hit or a perfect hit.
Besides don't forget that we're talking about resonably different wounds. The wound created by low velocity round shot pellets is different than a high velocity fragmenting rifle round's wound to a very large degree. To say the projectiles weigh the same so you need 9 shots of the rifle round to have equivelant wounding is certainly not an accurate way to look at it.

As to planning for zombies, nope. I had a friend who was the victim of a home invasion by 3 armed people who were after his valuables. I plan for my worst possible day for being about that, or maybe a lesser number with body armor thrown in. If I planned for what was most likely I wouldn't need a gun so I plan for what seems least likely but still remotely plausible. Your worst day plans may be significantly different.

 

[tyesai]

I'll concede that to a certain degree, .223 is moving about 2 1/2 times faster. Still, if it came down to me being tied up and someone shooting me once with a .223 rifle in the gut or a 12 with buck shot I would take my chances with the rifle.

As far as your friend goes, do you have any way to prove it? Sorry it is the net and I am a complete doubter. Anyone could say anything. I saw the sasquatch that wants to kill my wife and daughter last nite, prove otherwise.

That is why I am still waiting for a comprehensive list on the over penetration ordeal. I will make my own over the next week and post links for everyone no later than Saturday.

I'm done, I already hijacked from poor Stephen.

 

[Headless]

Rifle. Mini14 IMO. Shotgun would be good for the less comfortable shooter as you do have a margin for error with the right barrel + choke.

 

[atlctyslkr]

Shotgun for close quarters (most likely by the time threat is engaged it is close quarters!). Rifle for outside of the house and especially animals. You can't reason with a wild animal so you need to be able to engage them from a distance. Bears don't fear cachunk like burglars do.

 

[Soybomb]

As far as your friend goes, do you have any way to prove it? Sorry it is the net and I am a complete doubter. Anyone could say anything. I saw the sasquatch that wants to kill my wife and daughter last nite, prove otherwise.

Is that directed to me? If so I'm completely baffled. You don't believe that home invasions happen? That event was my eye opener that something as drastic as that could potentially happen to myself and thats why I plan accordingly. You're quite free to plan for whatever you think is possible for you. For most people thats nothing and they're fine. For you it might be a sitution where a shotgun is preferred.

 

[Bix]

steven m said:

OK, the general feel is for the shotty. But why choose it over the rifle? What advantages and or disadvantages does it have over the rifle?

Assuming an AR pattern rifle and a pump action shotgun:

Advantage: No bore offset issue at the close ranges you are likely to encounter in an HD scenario. A training issue, to be sure, but still an advantage in this situation, IMO.

Disadvantage: More prone to opeartor error. Pump action shotguns are confusing contraptions that can be difficult to run under stress.

 

[Heavy Metal Hero]

It isn't that they are difficult to operate. (In fact they are probably the second easiest gun to operate behind a standard revolver)

The majority of problems in a high stress situation is short stroking, i.e. not fully loading the next shell. Basically this can be avoid by punching through the target or overcompensating. Boxers dont punch your face, they punch through your face aiming at the back of your skull. I have also heard a lot of good things about 20 gauge shotguns. They are easier to handle and operate and each shot is said to be equal to two .44 magnum hits. 20 gauges are also easier for a wife or girlfriend.

 

[Zach S]

I prefer a shotgun, however would most likely use my 9mm AR. Its out most of the time, and get the most time at the range. My girlfriend cant shoulder my mossberg because it is too heavy, too long, and I dont think she could handle the recoil. My AR, on the other hand, is a lightweight rifle simple enough for a trained monkey to operate, has a short LOP, low recoil, high capacity, and has a light. Now, the light isnt a big deal to me. Since I work nights, I'm home all day.

I'm not a big fan of the 9mm, especially when compared to 12 gauge. However, she's comfortable with it, and aside from the noise, its just like a 5.56, so when I get one, the 9mm will probably be demoted to plinker duty, where I feel it belongs, but, since I work nights, thats up to my lady.

When I actually get a 5.56 AR built up, I'll probably use it for HD since I get so much more time behind an AR than I do a shotgun.

 

[DirtyBrad]

I strongly agree that the most important component isn't hardware, but comfort and proficiency.

I think the answer to your question is "keep both". You said you have good copies of both and you listed a variety of tasks to use them for (barricade, checking inside the house, checking outside the house, etc).

If you're barricaded, you'll surely have each of them at hand. If you're checking outside the house, maybe you'd prefer the rifle for range. If you're inside, maybe you'd rather have the shotgun for some of the reasons mentioned here.

In any case, you'll be keeping both plus your handguns, so train with all of them and work out the other aspects of your home defense and you'll be ready when trouble comes.

I also have pistol, rifle, and shotgun. All of them are good quality in sufficient calibers. I'm a long way from it, but my goal is that, if there's trouble, you could throw me any one of them and I'd be safe, comfortable, and competent.

 

[Exmasonite]

Stephen-

you wrote:

" A lot of

people have stated their preference for the shotty but none have given me a

real reason to choose it over the rifle."

It sorta sounds like you've made up your mind. I don't think anybody can give you a "definitive" scientific answer. Issue to consider are capacity, (over) penetration, and semiauto vs. manual pump(again, some shotguns are semi but most aren't).

You need to weigh each of those. As you've seen, some people (myself) worry about overpenetration, others don't. I'm sure there's tons of anecdotal evidence where a BG was neutralized with a shotgun and a BG was neutralized with a rifle. There's probably stories of people with a rifle or shotgun trying to defend their homes/family and still being defeated by the BGs.

It all comes down to what works best for you. You're not gonna get a "perfect" answer. You asked our opinions, take it or leave it.

 

[roo_ster]

steven m:

Go with the one that points/shoulders best/fastest for you.

For instance, I shoulder a Rem 1100 shotgun faster & point it more naturally than any rifle. Standard wt bbl & no vented rib, thank you! Unfortunately, my wife is not fond of its recoil.

So, I have begun to use her Rossi 92 in .44mag. It shoulders almost as well and is mild with handloaded .44mags loaded to cowboy levels with 240gr LSWC.

 

[Oregongundude]

Double barrel 12 gauge shotgun with buckshot.

I have a .308 browning hunting rifle as well. However, I would perfer a shotgun anyday in a HD situation. Point and pull the trigger it will do the job.

I guess I could point my rifle as well, however, I wouldn't want to have to aim it in the dark, especially with a scope. I feel very good that my shotgun will work in the dark if needed. The Shotgun should take the bg out rather quickly, however, if I don't get him I will shoot him with my .45 acp 5 inch tactical XD, or my XD .40 S&W compact. If all three of those don't work correctly I can get him with my Glock 17 9mm with two 30 round magazines of Winchester ranger 127 grain +p+ JHP SXT. If all that fails the house is his and I will gladly surrender it.

 

[12GA00buck]

I use a 12GA with alternating 000buck and 1oz slugs. The slugs are in-case it turns out the perp is wearing body armor. Either of these loads create much larger and extensive would channels than the best .223 defensive load. This gives a much higher probability of a one shot stop. This is not to say, that the .223 isint a good choice, ; I just prefer a shotgun for ranges under 30 yards.

 

[s&w 24]

I would pick a shotgun. I would load it with buckshot and have slugs on a carrier of some sort(buttcuff or sidesaddle) and an extra box of ammo by the exit door. With buck you have a great up close gun and with selected slugs any target at reasonable personal defence situations is a done deal. Also buckshot works well on feral dogs/coyotes/fox that are problematic.

I would not be crazy about a rifle indoors cause it's bad enough at the indoor range with muffs and plugs in and the muzzle flash would probily blind all partys involved.

 

[foghornl]

My Humble 1/50th of $1.....

I have approx 150 Yds in one direction from the front of house, and 60 Yds other direction from the front....about 30Yds straight accross the street.

Out back, 200Yds is the farthest line-of-sight.

Inside, 1911-A1 comes up first, then the Maverick 88 shotgun. I have #4Buck in the magazine of the Maverick, with slugs on the butt-cuff.

If I shoot those dry, or someone is driving/running through my neighboorhood popping off rounds, then I bring up the Most Serious Artillery

US Rifle Cal .30 M1

 

[crofrog]

Some problems with shotguns.

1) most people don't invest the time to insure they fully pump the weapon after every shot, thus inducing a malfunction.
2) Most people don't invest the time to learn how to quickly stuff shells into the gun
3) Difficult to operate from awkward postions.
4) Can induce malfunctions from awkward postions (such as roll over prone)
5) Low capacity
6) Slow to reload
7) Slower follow up shots
8) Not good for shots requiring an extreemly high degree of precision (hostage rescue shots for example, or even engaging a small exposed portion of an assliant)


Almost all of these problems are solved by a rifle, SMG or pistol caliber carbine. SMG's and PCC's loose out to a rifle in the terminal ballistics area making the rifle the pretty clear choice IMHO.

UNLESS. One is willing to invest the substational time requirements needed to be come good at operating the scattergun. In which case inside a shotguns enviroment. ie 0-15yd's against a limted number of assliants not wearing body armor with a low chance of extreemly precise shots required. It's probally one of the best tools to rapidly dispatch people with. I'd say it would be better for someone with limited training time to run a semi-auto shotgun as well. Because it solves a rather large number of problems with the running of the pump.

For most people though. The rifle is where it's at because of the reduced complexity for the manual of arms.

 

[Biker]

As I mentioned in another thread, without hearing protection indoors, I'll go with the SG. The blast from a 5.56 is very disorienting as compared to a SG blast. I could maybe compare the AR's sound to a really high bend on an electric guitar on the E string while the SG would be more like a low bass note on a Fender P bass.
With hearing protection, I'll go with my Bushmaster.

Biker

 

[Soybomb]

The slugs are in-case it turns out the perp is wearing body armor. Either of these loads create much larger and extensive would channels than the best .223 defensive load.

Those statements seem to be contradictory. The .223 load will actually go through the soft armor and make a wound, the slugs won't penetrate at all.

 

[riverdog]

Shotgun. Rifles vary wrt their applicability to home defense (caliber, action, sights) while a shotgun in either 12 or 20 would be fine with a load of buckshot. I'd avoid slugs and simply adjust my point upward if the first shot at COM wasn't effective. My current HD weapon of choice is a Rem 870 with a 20" IC barrel, shooting 00 Buck. YMMV

BTW, I occasionally use an 870 Skeet shooting. Pump hard and fast on those doubles, they are very doable. Short stroking the slide isn't a problem if you rack it hard enough to bounce off the stops.