rifle or shotgun for HD?

[telecaster1981]

My personal philosphy is 'use what ya got'

I'm not saying a person shouldn't purchase as many guns as finances allow, but I am saying you probably have something that'd work just fine right now!

I live way out in the country as well, so I've never worried about overpenetration. There have been a variety of guns stationed beside my bed over the years including an M1 Carbine, AK-47, M1 Garand (my favorite-makes a GREAT club as well!), SKS, Savage 755 12ga, Marlin leverguns in .444 and 45/70, FN49, Colt Detective Special, 1911, Ruger Blackhawk in .44mag, Browning Buckmark (when I was in college and overpenetration WAS an issue), Remington 1100 12ga, and currently a Marlin lever action .44mag backed up by a CZ52.

I usually keep a rifle beside the bed that will serve double duty in dispatching two-legged varmints and four-legged varmints that may be going through my garbage (this happens often). Many would argue that some of my above choices are iffy, like the lever guns and the SA revolvers (before you give me a hard time about these, check out the August 2006 issue of Guns & Ammo), but the important thing is to know your weapon. I have the utmost confidence that I can handle any practical situation with the guns mentioned above...and if, for whatever reason the gun beside my bed won't do, the one in my closet, or under my bed, or on my wife's side of the bed, or the one in her closet, or under the coffee table, or behind the couch...well, you get the idea.

 

[XDKingslayer]

If over penetration isn't an issue, I'm grabbing the rifle. My preffered rifle for home defense is my Winchester Model 94. It's shorter than my 18.5 barreled shotgun and is easier to manipulate inside the house.

 

[crofrog]

BTW, I occasionally use an 870 Skeet shooting. Pump hard and fast on those doubles, they are very doable. Short stroking the slide isn't a problem if you rack it hard enough to bounce off the stops.

Getting good hard strokes shooting skeet on a nice sunny day.

Is different than getting good hard strokes after being woken up at 0430 picking your gun up and then getting shot in the left arm and having the action slippery with your own blood.

Pumps are awesome for what they are, rugged and reliable. Auto's are simply better suited to be used for self defense though.

 

[KD5NRH]

If you are competent with a pistol, what's wrong with using your bedside pistol as your main HD gun? With normal capacity magazines now available again, my BHP can pump out 18 aimed shots, then another 17, then another 17... if 52 aimed shots won't do it, I'm screwed anyhow.

Well, if I put the big greenies (3.5" Magnum 00 buck) in, my Mossberg gives me 18 shots per pull of the trigger.

Even the low recoil S&B 00 shells have 12 pellets. Not sure about the Hornady LE low recoil though.

For those who want to be able to shoot through their front door, look at The Box O' Truth and note that the standard metal residential door didn't stop squat heavier than birdshot. In fact, it added extra shrapnel to the 00 load.

 

[Rocksurly]

Quote:
The slugs are in-case it turns out the perp is wearing body armor. Either of these loads create much larger and extensive would channels than the best .223 defensive load.

Those statements seem to be contradictory. The .223 load will actually go through the soft armor and make a wound, the slugs won't penetrate at all.


Soft body armor will not stop 12 guage slugs. You need level III or IV with HARD Body Armor Rifle Plates made of Ballistic Steel, Ceramic or Polyethylene.

 

[Zach S]

The blast from a 5.56 is very disorienting as compared to a SG blast.

Having fired both indoors without hearing protection, I feel I should comment.

At an indoor range, with doubled hearing protection, the SG (20") seems quiter than a .223 AR15 (16").

At the same range, with no hearing protection, the SG is deafening. All I heard was BOOM, followed by a dialtone. And only a dialtone. At some point the next day, my hearing began to recover. The round fired was a 9 pellet 00B low-recoil round from federal (H132 00).

The AR was more of a loud pop. A really load pop, followed by a dialtone, but I could still hear others talking normally. Yes, it was muffled (sounded kinda like having water in my ears), but I could still hear. The round fired was a Winchester 55gr FMJ.

I fired the SG first, and the AR three or four weeks later. After that, I started keeping my AR leaned up in a corner of the closet, where my mossberg used to sit.

I dont reccomend doing your own comparison, but thats how mine turned out. Of course, YMMV.

 

[Biker]

Hey Zack...
I've tested most of my SD guns indoors without hearing protection. I guess it's subjective. I found my Bushmaster to be more painful than my 870. The absolute worst gun to shoot indoors with naked ears was my 38 snubbie.

Biker

 

[Zach S]

The absolute worst gun was my 38 snubbie.

Same here...

I found that my thompson didnt bother me at all. If I had an HK USC in .45, I'd probably use it for HD. If my thompson wasnt bigger than my SG and twice as heavy as my AR15, I'd probably use it...

 

[Biker]

Yup, barely noticed my Glock 23. Man, I've been lusting after a Thompson bad.

Biker

 

[High Planes Drifter]

I keep my AR under the bed. I can practice cheaper with it than a shottie, and I find it more maneuverable than a shottie. I am comfortable with it, and possibly more important - confident with it. I would STRONGLY recomend that you include maneuverability and user freindly-ness/comfortability in the process of deciding on an HD weapon. Without these factors you have nothing. I am actually considering purchasing an M1 Carbine and possibly replacing my AR with it for that role. Small, light, fast handling for CQ fighting IMO is the key. Able to turn and cover corners and doorways is a HUGE factor often not taken into accountability. While staying put and waiting for the BG to come to you is certainly the ideal thing to do; I have children and do not have the total luxury of doing such. If I hear screams and an adult voice coming from the kids' room at oh' sh@! thirty in the morning (anything is possible), I need to respond. A carbine is faster handling and more maneuverable in CQ than a rack-action shottie with a 20" barrell.

 

[YammyMonkey]

As far as wounding potential between the two I think it's 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other. In your situation the rifle may be a better bet if you have outdoor property defense in mind.

I choose to use a rifle for HD since I don't have a SG that's not a bird/clay gun. And since hitting with a SG is very dependant on the actual fit of the gun to your body I think the aligning-of-the-sights process of a rifle is a better idea for a defensive purpose. You can put a set of standard or ghost ring sights on a shotgun, but I really don't want to go through that with my O/U or my BPS when I already have a perfectly good defensive rifle.

Compensating for the sight to bore offset of an AR at close range is not that big of a deal if you have practiced for it a little. Even if you don't compensate, the max of 2.6" in a vertical plane will hardly turn an instant incapacitation shot into a worthless one. In the end I think this issue, although something to consider, is pretty overblown.

 

[Panthera Tigris]

Mossberg 590A-1 12 guage for any situation. 9 rounds of 2.75 in. shot, and the way it spreads I'm not too concerned about having to hit 4 or 5 subjects rapidly.

Most aren't going to stay around when they hear the Mossberg rack a round.

 

[Jeff White]

Panthera Tigris said;

Mossberg 590A-1 12 guage for any situation. 9 rounds of 2.75 in. shot, and the way it spreads I'm not too concerned about having to hit 4 or 5 subjects rapidly.

I only have one question. Have you ever patterned your shotgun at home defense ranges?

Jeff

 

[HMMurdock]

Pump Shotty. Just wrack that baby and watch as the intruder soils himself and either runs away or surrenders. If he MAKES me use it itll be just as effective. Clearing rooms is just as easy with a shotty as with a rifle, and most home intruders dont have sniper/spotter pairs willing to take you down from a distance when you go outside. Any reasonable DEFENSE distance can effectively be dealt with just fine with a good shotty. Unless someone wants to rob you from 50 yards away behind a barricaded position, the Shotgun is the most effective.

Getting him down peacefully is your best bet. I'd like to take justice into my own hands as much as the nexty guy-- the SOB is in my house so he deserves it-- but thats not the world we live in today. I'd rather let him live than go through the months of legal hell that would follow anyway. Not to mention what happened to a buddy of mine that lives off a military base in North Carolina. A few weeks ago a drunken (and unarmed) Marine broke into his house and tried to sleep on the couch-- the jarhead was so drunk he thought it was his house. I'd hate to have emptied an AR15 into that guy and waited for the consequences...

Overpenetration is an issue, thats why SWAT teams are careful as to the ammunition they carry in an urban environment. And what if for some reason your wife or child is in the next room. Do you wanna risk that?

How many burglars wear body armor? I know this is a worst case scenario, but cmon? Why don't we arm them with ballistic shields and Hk G3 .308s while we are at it? --they are there to sneak in, take something, and sneak out. Possibly killing you in the process, but they rarely expect a stand-off, otherwise they'd be picking an easier target... unless your rural home is filled with gold...

TRL

 

[carpediem]

Whatever's quietest. Do you really want to suffer w/ permanent hearing damage for the rest of your life? I have a hereditary hearing condition, and trust me, it's no fun.

On a lighter note, you guys need to think outside the box. All of the above. A Rifle AND a Shotgun for HD. Simultaneous. Haven't you seen Terminator?

 

[Macpherson]

I would choose a 20 ga with buckshot. Less blast/recoil for myself and my wife, with very similar damage characteristics to the 12 gauge at close range. So many people seem convinced that the 12 is the only number to have, but the 20 is a nice alternative as well; either way the BG is having a whole lotta hurt thrown his way.

Plus its still useful for hunting etc

 

[crofrog]

Whatever's quietest. Do you really want to suffer w/ permanent hearing damage for the rest of your life? I have a hereditary hearing condition, and trust me, it's no fun.

If you want something to not damange your hearing. You need a surpressor. Period.

 

[Fred Fuller]

The key word in the original question is 'defense.' Defense to me implies short range, and for defensive use at short range I had by far rather have a shotgun with buckshot and slugs than a rifle. Reason? Effect on a soft target at close range is greater with the shotgun. Bore diameter on a 12 gauge is .729, and even given its reduced velocity over most rifles I'd rather have the larger diameter payload. I prefer full velocity 2.75" loads of 00 buckshot backed up by full velocity one ounce slugs to any rifle round for defensive use at home, shotguns here pattern the chosen buckshot loads inside 12" at 25 yards and beyond that there are slugs in the Sidesaddle. I grew up with a pump shotgun in my hands and am completely comfortable using one.

None of this might matter to someone who is more confident with a rifle due to greater experience and more trigger time on that platform. Every individual needs to decide what's best for them in their own individual situation. It isn't for me to dictate what anyone else chooses.

lpl/nc

 

[JShirley]

Hi, Stephen.

I've fired both extensively, though I have now fired more rounds from M4s, courtesy of Uncle Sugar.

Given both, I would choose the carbine. I have been unimpressed with the performance I've seen from buckshot at close range. I now exclusively use slugs for defense and when hunting big game.

I believe quality ammunition from a carbine (not ball, though even that works okay) is as effective against personnel as a shotgun slug. Carbines hold more ammunition, are quicker to use against multiple targets, are faster to reload, and are easier to learn to use effectively.

I believe the shotgun excels as a specialist piece, for breaching doors, stopping unarmored vehicles at close range...and protecting areas close to populated regions by guards who are likely to miss.

The big advantage of the shotgun for the defensive-minded citizen is price. I got an "everything I want" Mossberg (GR sights, short barrel, parkerized) for less than $350, IIRC. All I had to do was swap out for a shorter stock (traded), and add a sling. In comparison, a "bare bones" AR is going to start out around $700.

Don't get me wrong- a decent shotgun is a much more effective weapon than a sidearm, but I feel that I cannot agree that neither the shotgun or carbine is more effective than the other.

John

 

[Keith Wheeler]

I live in a semi-rural area, and unfortunately one that has seen crime increase of late.

I don't own a shotgun, but have plenty of rifles, pistol caliber carbines, and pistols. If there's a situation immediately in/around the house I'm most likely to go for a pistol, with my wife on back-up.

For, um let's say longer ranged issues, a rifle. We have a number of out buildings on our property, and we've had a few problems. My AR and Mini-14 mags start off with a few red tipped tracers.

I know what the advice is, blah blah it's just property, blah blah retreat, but the reality of where we live is changing. Our 25 square mile section of the county is covered by only two deputies. This is semi-rural, which means there are a lot of people. Our county jail is full, and the bad guys know it. The smash and grab burglars have turned into smash and grab robbers. Without effective law enforcement, who knows how far they will go?

 

[vynx]

Stephen based on your original post - either would seem fine for you but, i agree with the post that aiming a shotgun in low light or no light situations may be easier - so I go shotgun

 

[Panthera Tigris]

I only have one question. Have you ever patterned your shotgun at home defense ranges?

I have to admit, I have not. However, my place is so small if 4 or 5 perps tried to rush in, they'd all be jammed up in the opening and I could just pluck away at them. My place is not big enough to even qualify as 'home defense range'.

 

[Zach S]

Whatever's quietest. Do you really want to suffer w/ permanent hearing damage for the rest of your life?

If my hearing was my primary concern, I would use the quietest thing I own. A 40" long, 15lb thompson in .45 ACP that I shoot occasoinally.

If the survival of myself and loved ones was my primary concern, I'd use what I train with most often, my EOTech and surefire equipped AR15.

 

[doofus]

My choice was made for me...

I can't get many rifles/carbines that I'd be happy with since I live in a state with overly restrictive gun-laws (thank you California), so it was easy for me to choose a shotgun over a rifle.

 

[offthepaper]

They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
HD choice is in the confidence of the holder.