Rifles with ground off serial numbers...

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Dynasty

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So I went to my friend's property to shoot and as we were getting the rifles out I noticed a few of them didn't have serial numbers. They were ground off by I'm guessing a grinder or dremel. After shooting, he asked me how I liked this WASR-10. It shot well and I jokingly asked if he wanted to sell it and he said he was considering it to use the money towards an AR 15. I'm considering it, but what's the deal with the serial numbers ground off? It's not stolen because he took it out of the original box with the receipt. I don't want to offend him by asking, but are there any bad things about buying a rifle with ground off serial numbers?

What are your opinions?
 
Are you 100% sure they are ground off? If he has a receipt either there is a serial number somewhere, or HE ground them off. There is a third option, but it is unlikely. That is the gun shop he bought them from has an ATF death wish.

Why not ask your friend if there is a serial number, and if there isn't, have him ask the gun shop. I am almost certain it is there somewhere unless your friend did it himself.
 
I would have asked why he would grind the serial number off the receiver of a rifle. I would have HAD to ask.

If he is intent on doing something criminal with it, he may want to know that modern forensics can get filed off serial numbers from the metal stress. (I watch CSI, too)

Or maybe he shouldn't know...



To answer the question(s)...

I'm not going to look it up, but grinding off a firearm's serial number IS a crime.

Now here is a question... as with some AK parts kits, you may well end up with a serial number on the non-"gun" parts that don't match the actual serial number on the US-made receiver. I can't imagine grinding off a non-registered, non-receiver serial number would be a crime...

Either way, there is NO way I'd buy a gun with ANY serial numbers ground off. Even if the one taken off isn't a crime, I have NO desire to have that discussion with a Deputy at 3:00 AM-- or with a DA when I am paying a lawyer $300/hour.




-- John
 
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title 18, section 922k

(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
Click to expand...
 
I am a dealer and wanted to say that is a Felony weapon waiting to happen.

You might as well join the Bonnie and Clyde stupid club. Any gun that has had its serial number obliterated is an illegal weapon and its time to choose new friends as he may be in posession of stolen goods.

:eek:
 
If it's a hand built one then it may not have a serial number. He would have to add a serial number to the receiver before he could sell it. If it's a home built then he'd be advised to check the law and regulations before selling it.
 
Thanks for the answers.

I figured something had to be illegal and am glad I didn't buy it right there.
 
"If it's a hand built one then it may not have a serial number. He would have to add a serial number to the receiver before he could sell it. If it's a home built then he'd be advised to check the law and regulations before selling it."

It is legal for sale if it was NOT built for sale.
If you build it for personal use but then decide to sell, it is legal.
It is up to you to convince BATFE you did not intend to sell the gun when you built it.

If it is a commercial firearm with a 'damaged' serial number stay away.

Serial numbers were not required until GCA68, but most manufacturers still used them.
 
Pretty tough to prove ownership of a modern firearm with serial number ground off. Removing it might also be considered evidence of intent to commit a crime, so you'll find feds and state statutes prohibit them.

Now, if that's a felony in your state, you are aware of it, and failure to report it makes you guilty of misprision of a felony in some jurisdictions.

Some friend.
 
(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
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I keep seeing this. So it's perfectly legal to grind off the serial number of a gun, so long as it was manufactured, sold, and bought in the same state. Interesting..
 
I keep seeing this. So it's perfectly legal to grind off the serial number of a gun, so long as it was manufactured, sold, and bought in the same state. Interesting..
Click to expand...

I'd check your state laws and contact counsel before coming to that conclusion. IANAL.
 
If these were all AK's, it is POSSIBLE that someone ground the existing serial number off the front trunnion and then stamped a new one on the receiver, since under US law, thats where the serial number must be.

Its kind of like a Glock. The serial number is printed on the barrel, the slide, and frame. It would be perfectly legal for you to fill in and refinish the slide, eliminating all markings.

Unless he can give you a VERY acceptable explanation as to why they were ground off, I would stay away however.

c2k
 
I'd check your state laws and contact counsel before coming to that conclusion. IANAL.
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It was more of a rhetorical "interesting" comment, reflecting on how precariously thin the interstate commerce clause in the Constitution has been stretched, in order to give legitimate authority behind laws that should never have been ratified.
 
I'd check your state laws and contact counsel before coming to that conclusion. IANAL.
Click to expand...

But you are correct. Many states have provisions regarding serial numbers above and beyond federal law. For example, General Geoff's location is listed as Pennsylvania which has the law:

Title 18 § 6117. Altering or obliterating marks of identification.
(a) Offense defined.--No person shall change, alter, remove,
or obliterate the manufacturer's number integral to the frame or
receiver of any firearm which shall have the same meaning as
provided in section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess,
use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms).
(b) Presumption.--Possession of any firearm upon which any
such mark shall have been changed, altered, removed or
obliterated shall be prima facie evidence that the possessor has
changed, altered, removed or obliterated the same.
(c) Penalty.--A violation of this section constitutes a
felony of the second degree.​
 
Folks steal guns from dealers all the time, especially at gunshows and it is very common for entire cargo trailers or vans full of firearms to be stolen from hotel parking lots......... these folks thinkin grinding off the serial number is all it takes to then re-sell these guns......... in the original boxes

BTW; ya are now an accesary after the fact unless ya notify your local authorities of what you saw and make it clear that you did handle these weapons....... and for your own safty a good idea for ya to do so seein as how now your prints are on those weapons, we had a bunch of L1A1 kits stolen many years ago.... last year 15 of the 120 kits were recovered while the cops were investigating another crime...... when they came to the shop they had a print card for the guy who has been there for 20 years as a helper........ his prints were still on the kits after a lil more than 10 years of em being missing!! he had sorted those kits when they came in from England all them years ago........

if your "friend" uses those guns in a crime or sells em or even ditches em and they get checked then ya will be gettin a warrant against you as well.... BTW theft of a firearm from an FFL holder is a special offense with a mandatory 10 year sentence if that gun was stolen from a gunshow dealer and your prints are now on it then that would be a very bad spot to be in........ if ya have knowledge of a gun an average intelligent individual might suspect is stolen and do nothing to inform authorities but rather choose to warn your friend that he's an idiot then your guilty of concealing a felony...... your buddy did ya a real favor huh?
 
just learned about this very thing in class...

it is illegal to remove a serial number, however, it is perfectly legal to re-stamp the original number in a new place and then grind/dremel/polish the original mark off. This is somthing gunsmiths have to do from time to time to preserve the serial number while doing a P&B
 
A firearm with an altered serial number is evidence of crime, and subject to seizure by police.
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In Arkansas, possession of a firearm with an altered or obliterated serial number is a Class D felony. A ten foot pole ain't long enough for this one...

Stay away, from the deal and your "friend".
 
So it's perfectly legal to grind off the serial number of a gun, so long as it was manufactured, sold, and bought in the same state.

Even under the circumstances you mention something in the gun was involved in interstate commerce.

has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
 
I keep seeing this. So it's perfectly legal to grind off the serial number of a gun, so long as it was manufactured, sold, and bought in the same state. Interesting..
Click to expand...
Not in the state of Nebraska:
http://uniweb.legislature.ne.gov/LegalDocs/view.php?page=s2812007000
http://uniweb.legislature.ne.gov/LegalDocs/view.php?page=s2812008000
Section 28-1207
Possession of a defaced firearm; penalty.
(1) Any person who knowingly possesses, receives, sells, or leases, other than by delivery to law enforcement officials, any firearm from which the manufacturer's identification mark or serial number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, commits the offense of possession of a defaced firearm.
(2) Possession of a defaced firearm is a Class IV felony.

Section 28-1208
Defacing a firearm; penalty.
(1) Any person who intentionally removes, defaces, covers, alters, or destroys the manufacturer's identification mark or serial number or other distinguishing numbers on any firearm commits the offense of defacing a firearm.
(2) Defacing a firearm is a Class IV felony.
Click to expand...

I have an aversion to felonies. I'm just weird.
 
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