Rifles with ground off serial numbers...

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Well, what if...

you have a firearm, a "modern" one, which has no serial number and never had one. Not talking about an antique flintlock or caplock here; obviously those didn't have s/n's when manufactured. But old cheap hardware-store break-action single-bbl shotguns, one of which used to be behind the kitchen door of every farmhouse in the country, often said nothing other than, perhaps, "National Hardware Co, Omaha, Nebraska, 12 gauge proof steel" If that much. Many such are still around, perfectly useable with modern ammunition.

If a firearm was made before GCA 68, and never had a s/n, is it grandfathered in, or what?

Just curious.

Strat 81--I'm with you all the way. Highly felony-averse.
 
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I keep seeing this. So it's perfectly legal to grind off the serial number of a gun, so long as it was manufactured, sold, and bought in the same state. Interesting..
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Not in Illinois either....
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilc...eqEnd=53500000&ActName=Criminal+Code+of+1961.
(720 ILCS 5/24‑5) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑5)
Sec. 24‑5. Defacing identification marks of firearms.
(a) Any person who shall knowingly or intentionally change, alter, remove or obliterate the name of the importer's or manufacturer's serial number of any firearm commits a Class 2 felony.
(b) A person who possesses any firearm upon which any such importer's or manufacturer's serial number has been changed, altered, removed or obliterated commits a Class 3 felony.
(c) Nothing in this Section shall prevent a person from making repairs, replacement of parts, or other changes to a firearm if those repairs, replacement of parts, or changes cause the removal of the name of the maker, model, or other marks of identification other than the serial number on the firearm's frame or receiver.
(d) A prosecution for a violation of this Section may be commenced within 6 years after the commission of the offense.
(Source: P.A. 93‑906, eff. 8‑11‑04.)
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I thus rescind my previous statement, and issue a modified one: So it's perfectly legal to grind off the serial number of a gun, so long as it was manufactured, sold, and bought in the same state, under federal law.
 
I thus rescind my previous statement, and issue a modified one: So it's perfectly legal to grind off the serial number of a gun, so long as it was manufactured, sold, and bought in the same state, under federal law.
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If you find a gun that was manufactured, sold, and bought in the same state that you are in, you should probably get on findlaw or go the the law library at the courthouse and look up how the courts have defined Interstate Commerce. You might be surprised to find that things like if the electricity for the plant that made the gun, the shop where the gun was sold, or the residence of the person who bought it was produced out of state, the gun was in interstate commerce. Let's not forget that every part of the gun needs to have originated in the same state, to include the iron ore that was smelted into the steel. I'm not really exaggerating here. Interstate Commerce is pretty sweeping. Congress justifies a lot of laws with it, and the courts almost never invalidate one because it didn't effect interstate commerce.

Jeff
 
Smokey Joe said:
If a firearm was made before GCA 68, and never had a s/n, is it grandfathered in, or what?
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Yes, basically. I've got a lever action .22 (single shot, falling block) that came from the factory with no number. (Pre-'68, obviously) On the 4473, the dealer just wrote down "No Serial Number".
 
Smoky, there are alota pump shotguns around without serial numbers..... I recently was inspecting a bunch of old retired police riot guns when a problem appeared........ none of em had serial numbers! It was from the arsenal of an AZ police department that was a very small town until it was recently annexed by Phoenix....... all they had was an electro penciled dept. issued number they were old Stevens 12 gauge riot guns....
 
If you find a gun that was manufactured, sold, and bought in the same state that you are in, you should probably get on findlaw or go the the law library at the courthouse and look up how the courts have defined Interstate Commerce.
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It's not how the courts have defined it that's the problem, it's how the courts haven't defined it.
 
This seller buys auctioned lots of police confiscated firearms and sells them. http://www.summitgunbroker.com/708027.html

This is one of his guns that is available on gunbroker:
pix1117545453.jpg
 
Your friend probably isn't nearly as clever as he thinks he is being. I know of four seperate locations on the WASR-10 that carry the original serial number. Unless he completely parted out his rifle, there's a good chance he missed one or more.
 
Pretty tough to prove ownership of a modern firearm...
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In my state you don't need to "prove" you own a firearm. How else would people be able to do private sales? A lot of people do the "cash and carry" method, no papertrail as they call it.

Perfectly legal.


Keep in mind I'm not talking about serial numbers, just the proving part :)
 
I keep seeing this. So it's perfectly legal to grind off the serial number of a gun, so long as it was manufactured, sold, and bought in the same state. Interesting..
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That's skating on thin ice. There have been circumstances when an activity occurring only in one state has been construed as interstate commerce, thusly subject to federal regulation. One example being the forced desegregation of city busses for example. Let us also remember that the Supreme Court held inthe 1930s that the commerce clause could be applied to allow the federal government to apply quota limits to agricultural commodities grown for personal/family sustinence, if growing those commodities could provide competition with or affected/could affect (by causing one not to engage in) interstate commerce (that was the general idea of the ruling, I don't have it in front of me right now, so I can't quote it verbatim).

The FEDGOV could easily make a case against you.
 
Didn't see any answer about non numbered guns, so here it is

Firearms made before the Fed requirement for a serial number (1968) do not have to have one. Most did, but many did not, especially cheaper guns like single shot .22s. And some foreign guns, again made (and imported) before 68 are sometimes found with ser#s. They are grandfathered. You do not have to put a number on them, and a dealer records them in his book as "no serial number", and an explanation, along with any identifing marks.

I had a Siamese Mauser that went to a shop for some work, (and if there was any ser# we couldn't find it), and it was recorded as "no ser#". This was a few years back, so if any current dealers know if the rules have changed, please let us know.
 
novaDAK

The need to prove ownership arises if the gun is stolen, lost or someone else claims ownership. How do you refute a claim that this is a gun stolen from a shipment ten years ago? Get a seller to testify that she sold you a gun with numbers defaced?

A gun with all numbers scrubbed is essentially contraband. You wouldn't be wise to claim an unregistered short barrelled shotgun either.
 
In Alabama...

mere possession of a firearm with a ground off number is a Class C felony
Title 13A-11-64 Code of Alabama

oc71
 
"Its kind of like a Glock. The serial number is printed on the barrel, the slide, and frame. It would be perfectly legal for you to fill in and refinish the slide, eliminating all markings."

That is correct. People change slides and barrels all the time. The serial number that can't be altered is the one on the frame. Some old Colts even have serial numbers on the grips so when you buy it you can tell if it is the original grips or not. It is not against the law to remove the serial number from the grips, or the slide, just the frame.
 
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