Right to Keep and Bear, what does it really mean?

[HBrebel]

I agree with AWGRIZZLY in post #97. I live of my own freewill. If I decide to do something against another, I will face the consequences but no entity has the power to grant or take away any rights from me. It's already bad enough that they keep most of us living in servitude to generate $$ for the debt that they created. The Federal Gov has most of our states bent over the rail and thanking them for the opportunity. Maybe I will just up and move to Vermont.

 

[Neverwinter]

So...okay. It meant that the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed and the utility is that it acts as a deterrent to those who would destroy our liberty...either by legislation or by outright invasion. The final check and balance.

Better?

In this day and age, does it have that utility? Or is it a rock that keeps away tigers?

You mean the way they did with the '94 Assault Weapon Ban and the '68 Gun Control Act and the banning of weapons with certain features like bayonet lugs and pistol grips and heat shields and certain ammunition types? Is it much of a stretch to imagine banning by caliber next?

Really? Kid yourself much?

I'm sorry, did I stumble upon an alternate universe where the proponents of useless legislation had backed it up with anything other than appeals to emotion?

 

[1911Tuner]

In this day and age, does it have that utility? Or is it a rock that keeps away tigers?

Sure it does. It still has that utility. Why else do you think an armed populace makes them so nervous, and why some seem to be so determined to take them? Does anybody really believe that it's about the children or the whales or the spotted owls?

It stands in their way. Gun control isn't about guns and crime. It's about control.

I'm sorry, did I stumble upon an alternate universe where the proponents of useless legislation had backed it up with anything other than appeals to emotion?

Well, they did manage to get an entire class of perfectly good firearms banned from import and magazines prohibited based on emotional reactions...even though it did sunset. They'll have another go at it...after an intense propaganda campaign that appeals to the emotions...and this time there will be no sunset clause. I imagine that it will also cover a more extensive list of firearms the next time...like the neat little Ruger 10/22 et al.

So...they're okay with 10 rounds, but not 11. Does this mean that they're okay with 10 corpses and no more. And what do we say the next time when they decide that 10 is still too many, and they want 8..then 6...and finally to ban detachable box magazines and the guns that take them altogether?

Liberty is taken one nibble at a time.

 

[gbran]

Right to Keep and Bear, what does it really mean?

It means you have a right to keep firearms in your home only. Our current leaders want us to believe that our founders forgot to mention that they intended for us to lock our guns in strong boxes before mounting our horses or buggies for any travel outside the home.

 

[Neverwinter]

Sure it does. It still has that utility. Why else do you think an armed populace makes them so nervous, and why some seem to be so determined to take them? Does anybody really believe that it's about the children or the whales or the spotted owls?

It stands in their way. Gun control isn't about guns and crime. It's about control.

Most of the time I've heard people fearing guns due to transference of their own perceived willingness to shoot someone; they have a funhouse mirror perception of guns. They don't think at such a high level as to control but instead of their own fear that someone with a gun is going to shoot them.

 

[awgrizzly]

This sentiment is expressed here pretty often. I don't buy it.

Most of us are more free today than in 1787. We've already alluded to a giant increase in freedom for those of us who have African ancestors. And the half of us born with two X chromosomes have certainly gained freedom.

Our Second Amendment rights are getting stronger in most jurisdictions. 30 years ago in my state, concealed carry was almost always illegal and you had to wait two weeks to buy a handgun. That's gone. So is the AWB. That's not to say the battle is over, but it is going our way.

Our First Amendment rights are stronger than ever, too. This forum alone gives every one of us freedom to speak to a bigger audience than many small newspapers in the 18th Century. And we didn't have to buy a press. We routinely say things here that would have prompted a visit from Joe McCarthy's JBTs back in the '50s.

I work with two Muslims, two Wiccans, a Mormon and an atheist. In East Tennessee! A hundred years ago most of those folks would not have been employable without hiding their religious beliefs.

Except for the regrettable fits and starts, Freedom is growing, not eroding.

Tell that to the people of California, Chicago, New York, New Jersey or Washington DC. And I must remind you that most states have fought to gain their right to carry. We still have freedom of speech, perhaps more so because of modern communications, but each day we hear about restricting talk radio, cable stations, and even the Internet. A bill to do this couldn't pass in congress, so now they are having the FCC working on new regulations to accomplish what congress couldn't. They have done the same thing with the EPA when their bill imposing penalties on us for CO2 emissions failed to pass in congress. We have the PC police out in droves chastising people for saying things that might offend. Over the years the federal government has gained ever more influence and control of our lives most often in the guise of interstate commerce for things having nothing to do with commerce. We have gone from not being allowed to lead school kids in prayer to the elimination of Christmas in many places, and the elimination of the pledge of allegiance. We have public officials, including the president himself, ridiculing honest citizens, casting them as radicals bent on violence. Though we still retain our rights, we seem to be in a constant battle to prevent losing them. And when folks talk of losing our rights they are predominantly talking about a threat of loss... once lost they would be extremely hard to regain. When's the last time you walked down main street carrying a rifle on your shoulder? Now if your child makes a shooting gesture with his forefinger and thumb he's likely to be forced to get counseling. The are a million ways our freedom has eroded or is threatened.

 

[CraigC]

The are a million ways our freedom has eroded or is threatened.

Yep and most people are completely blind to it.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

And many others are willing to justify or excuse it.

 

[1911Tuner]

Yep and most people are completely blind to it.

They stay so busy playin' computer games and watchin' football and twitterin' and hangin' out in Yoville and facebookin' and playin' golf and American Idol and Michael Jackson's last visit to the crapper and Janet's feelings on that event and wonderin' what's up with the Joneses to notice the worm that's eatin' away at our core.

"In tonight's news, the Middle East erupts in violence as Iran's nukes come online...but first...Did Brittney Spears really have a collection of Barbie dolls...or was she actually a tomboy who would rather climb trees than play dress-up?"

I'm just sayin'...

And many others are willing to justify or excuse it.

Yes. Yes. Give us safety! Protect us! Whatever you have to do, we're okay with it! Just don't let anything happen to our microwaves and our satellite TeeWee and please...save the whales in your free time and be sure to shiver our timbers with global warming and asteroid collisions about once a month so we can be okay with whatever you have to do to save the Earth. You're the government! You can do anything!

But whatever you do...Don't tell us what's really goin' on up there on Capitol Hill. We can't handle it.

 

[Creature]

The fact is that an armed people is much less likely to be tyrannized than an unarmed people. Look at what is happening in Egypt. What do you think would happen if that large of a segment of OUR population believed our government to be illegitimate and oppressive? Do you think that dictator would still be in power? Do you think people would just be marching in the streets, protesting and throwing rocks? How many of his tyrannical acts do you think he would have been able to get away with? Do you think they would have put up with him for 30 years? Nope... he would have gone the way of Nicolae Ceaucescu a long time ago. That's the difference between an armed people and an unarmed people.

There is a anti-gun fella I know who pointed out that the overthrow of a dictatorship, as demonstrated in Egypt, does not require the ownership of guns by the citizenry of the land.

 

[CraigC]

They stay so busy playin' computer games and watchin' football and twitterin' and hangin' out in Yoville and facebookin' and playin' golf and American Idol and Michael Jackson's last visit to the crapper and Janet's feelings on that event and wonderin' what's up with the Joneses to notice the worm that's eatin' away at our core.

Amen, truer words were never spoken!!!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

There is a anti-gun fella I know who pointed out that the overthrow of a dictatorship, as demonstrated in Egypt, does not require the ownership of guns by the citizenry of the land.

Swimming away from a sinking ship doesn't require a life jacket either, if rescue is ready to hand. So would he recommend ships not carry life jackets?

 

[CraigC]

If the dictator and his army had been hell-bent to stay in power, it would be a VERY different story.

 

[Kenneth]

There is a anti-gun fella I know who pointed out that the overthrow of a dictatorship, as demonstrated in Egypt, does not require the ownership of guns by the citizenry of the land.

There was a clear threat of violent action. The government chose to change before violent action became necessary. Does the "anti-gun fella" really think that the people with the guns where afraid of people with just sticks and stones?

Armed blacks don't get lynched.
Armed women don't get battered.
Armed gays don't get bashed.
Armed society's don't get enslaved.

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story wrote;

 

[GambJoe]

There was a clear threat of violent action. The government chose to change before violent action became necessary. Does the "anti-gun fella" really think that the people with the guns where afraid of people with just sticks and stones?

Egypt has a long way to go. Not good in any country to have the military dispencing democracy. But to answer your question, yes. The fact is the Egyptian military has allot to to be afraid of had they slaughtered the protesters how would they hold on to power? Same with Iran, Yemen and Jordan. These countries do not want to be seen as tyranies. Can you imagine if the protesters had guns and shot on the police and troops; there would have been a blood bath.

Peaceful protest would work in this country if you wanted it to. Agent provocateurs aside and they are always present, to start trouble when there's a protest, with money paid to private security firms by our tax dollars. A protest that ends with gun fire isn't exactly good for any nation or the persons shot.

 

[Neverwinter]

Tell that to the people of California, Chicago, New York, New Jersey or Washington DC. And I must remind you that most states have fought to gain their right to carry. We still have freedom of speech, perhaps more so because of modern communications, but each day we hear about restricting talk radio, cable stations, and even the Internet. A bill to do this couldn't pass in congress, so now they are having the FCC working on new regulations to accomplish what congress couldn't. They have done the same thing with the EPA when their bill imposing penalties on us for CO2 emissions failed to pass in congress. We have the PC police out in droves chastising people for saying things that might offend. Over the years the federal government has gained ever more influence and control of our lives most often in the guise of interstate commerce for things having nothing to do with commerce. We have gone from not being allowed to lead school kids in prayer to the elimination of Christmas in many places, and the elimination of the pledge of allegiance. We have public officials, including the president himself, ridiculing honest citizens, casting them as radicals bent on violence. Though we still retain our rights, we seem to be in a constant battle to prevent losing them. And when folks talk of losing our rights they are predominantly talking about a threat of loss... once lost they would be extremely hard to regain. When's the last time you walked down main street carrying a rifle on your shoulder? Now if your child makes a shooting gesture with his forefinger and thumb he's likely to be forced to get counseling. The are a million ways our freedom has eroded or is threatened.

They stay so busy playin' computer games and watchin' football and twitterin' and hangin' out in Yoville and facebookin' and playin' golf and American Idol and Michael Jackson's last visit to the crapper and Janet's feelings on that event and wonderin' what's up with the Joneses to notice the worm that's eatin' away at our core.

I'm not sure which of these two zeitgeists I would prefer, ignorant or misinformed. With the ignorant, I can hope they would tend to avoid politics rather than promote bad policy.

 

[1911Tuner]

I'm not sure which of these two zeitgeists I would prefer,

Take that personally, did we?

 

[K-Rod]

"I'm not sure which of these two zeitgeists I would prefer, ignorant or misinformed. With the ignorant, I can hope they would tend to avoid politics rather than promote bad policy."


I don't understand how you could even say this? Do you live in a cave???

 

[TexasBill]

I've been following this spirited discussion with interest.

Some points: Sorry, Craig: privately funded railroads went belly-up with almost monotonous regularity. The history of the railroad in America is littered with bankruptcies.

Many of the things about which people are complaining aren't federal laws. The states are the ones that have enacted the greatest restrictions on RKBA. Yes, the federal government has restricted what arms we can buy without going through a lot of red tape. And it has said certain classes of people cannot buy firearms. Outside of that, the feds haven't had much to say about keeping and bearing arms. Otherwise, we wouldn't have Alaska, Arizona and Vermont on one end of the spectrum and New York, California and Illinois on the other.

The majority of people are apathetic. It's nothing new; they were during the Revolutionary War, as well. As long as the government steps on someone else's toes, the average person is happy. How many elected officials are returned to office year after year without regard for their accomplishments or lack thereof? A number of the new "Tea Party" Representatives promised to reform but they are already out there holding $250/plate dinners and hobnobbing with the lobbyists.

If you think China would balk at a million casualties, think again. This is the country that uses thousands of people in major projects rather than using modern equipment. The U.S. loses less than 50 miners a year: In 2007, China lost 3,800 in coal mining alone; the Chinese were happy the number had declined. Fortunately, as long as we continue to buy the products they make, an invasion is unlikely.

Politically correct is not law; it's custom. You don't want to be PC? Don't be. It's your First Amendment right.

So who are we fighting? Politicians? Nope; they can be tossed in the next election and, in some states, they can be recalled. Laws can be repealed. Liberals? Not really; some of them like guns, too. The media? There's all sorts of media and there are all sorts of media owners most of whom don't care about bias just as long as they're making money.

The reality is that we have the exact type of government we really want. The U.S. government was set up to be a "hands-on" government where the people were involved and informed. Where the people would be passionate about their rights and accepting of their responsibilities. That's where the militia came from; the Founding Fathers did not trust a government with a standing army. While it may not be in the Constitution, it is clear enough from the writings of Adams, Jefferson and others that the people were the line of defense against tyranny, at home or abroad, and that's why those who created the Constitution enjoined the federal government from ever infringing upon the people's pre-existing right to be armed. For those who think that applies only to the federal government, it's worth noting the framers of the Constitution did not put any limits on the prohibition against infringement. The First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law..." It doesn't say anything about the states not making any laws but just about every state holds the First Amendment to be absolute.

Yes, we have put the clamps on Christmas. But we still have a huge Christmas tree every year in the White House. Go figure. If Joe Liebermann were elected President, would we have a giant Chanukah bush? Or the Capitol Menorah?

Our opponents are, by and large, good people. And they think of themselves as good people, fighting what they perceive to be a threat to order and peace. And they have to agree only on one point: increasing gun control.

We, on the other hand, remind me of the Democrats elected in 2008: they couldn't get anything done, even though they controlled both houses, because they couldn't agree on the time of day. We bicker over minutiae like open carry versus concealed carry, sporting pursuits being the only legitimate reason to own guns versus owning guns simply because one wants to own them and whether magazine capacities should be limited.

Gun owners are a minority. However, from the statistics I can find, we are a larger minority than most of the racial groups. To me, this means we should be more effective than we are. Yet, our opposition need not divide us; we do that very nicely all by ourselves. Look at the sheer number of firearms advocacy groups. And most of us would rather bellyache about the status quo than make some waves doing something about it. We complain about the antis getting all the coverage but where are we when it comes to advocacy? Incidentally, I am not holding myself out to be any better or any worse.

I am not saying we need to rock the boat but we might want to think about grabbing the oars and rowing in a different direction.

 

[Neverwinter]

Take that personally, did we?

The second quote describes a person of ignorance due to their preoccupation with consumerism, and the first quote describes the viewpoint of the misinformed.

If my previous post confused you, let me rephrase. I don't think that either of these positions are beneficial to the political landscape. There is one more comment that I'm going to make regarding the misinformed, but that will wait until after awgrizzly's response to TexasBill's post or tomorrow(whichever is earlier).

 

[1911Tuner]

I wasn't really addressing the political landscape and don't care if it helps or not. Simply making an observation of the people around me. They don't seem to be very concerned with what goes on in the world and in the country...but they can sure tell you who's in the running on American Idol, and how many people they have to send dancing frogs to in Farmville. They're more concerned with somebody unfriending them on facebook than they are with the situation in the Middle East. I guess as long as they have their MTV, all is well with their world, though.

Just my observations...

 

[JayBird]

First off...I have loved reading through this thread.

Secondly...RTKABA is the most important 6 words in the entire constitution. It is what keeps the government from infringing on all of the other rights that are "the peoples" The moment the 2A gets written completely off the book, is the moment that "the people" have decided we are no longer a democracy, and dont require any of our rights.

Lastly....for those that says there is no chance that 2A will go away completely.....read the following link. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7056245.stm

It is basically a textbook on how to eat an elephant...ie piece by piece. Remember, historically, the RTKABA was not granted, but affirmed in the 2A, because it was already a right of ours. That right can be traced back to the same document that the British right was granted in.....a right that is no longer theirs........

Their people allowed it to happen, they did not exercise their rights, and as it has been said many times before, a right not exercised is a right lost. The British are proof of this.

The question is how do we prevent it? And my only answer is to spread the word, and spread the right. Get others interested in firearms. Speak strongly, but from a position of knowledge,compassion and wisdom. The more people that exercise their 2A rights, the harder it will be for the government to trample them.

 

[230therapy]

Secondly...RTKABA is the most important 6 words in the entire constitution. It is what keeps the government from infringing on all of the other rights that are "the peoples" The moment the 2A gets written completely off the book, is the moment that "the people" have decided we are no longer a democracy, and dont require any of our rights.

First, if the RKABA prevents violations of the Constitution, then why does the TSA continue to violate Americans' Fourth Amendment rights by searching and scanning them? The American people have protested and burned out...and the scanners are still being used.

We are such wimps that we allow TSA agents to feel up little boys and girls! The founders would have killed any and all government agents involved in such acts. All we do is whine about it on the Internet.

When did this country become a democracy? You need to read the founders' writings on why democracies are terrible.

 

[NMGonzo]

What it means is that the citizen must be armed in order to ensure that their state (or nation) remains free. The citizen may be called to defend the free state against foreign enemies... or, the most extreme of circumstances, may be called upon to overthrow a government by force that has become oppressive, no longer allowing the state to be free.

Careful there LT.

The last time the military overthrew a government in my old country all the gun rights went out the window.

I was borne the year that my country lost the gun rights for everybody and became the privilege of the few

 

[USAF_Vet]

Karl Marx once said 'Religion is the opiate of the people.' In his day, that may have been true. Today, Entertainment is the opiate of the people. Weak willed and weak minded people don't want to see the evil underbelly of society, they want to see HDTV, 3D movies, and someone to hold their hand and tell them the world is okay, when it obviously is not. If they saw the truth of the matter, they might feel compelled to do something about it. My grandfathers generation was considered the Greatest Generation on Earth. They stood up to tyranny and many lost their lives to accomplish that. The history of the US is full of those stories, from pre-revolution to today. But those stories are becoming few and far between. Why? Because we are breeding the next generation to be complacent. We are inundated with distractions at every turn. Revolution in Egypt? What about that poor reported woman at the Grammy's who may have had some sort of seizure? Oh, Justin Beieber didn't win the Grammy for best new artist? Quick... rapid... bursts... of useless... information to wipe our short term memories of important facts. [sarcasm] Who cares about what happens in Egypt anyway? That isn't even close to me. [/sarcasm] Ooooh, I can follow CNN on Twitter?! Why not just follow CNN on... wait for it... CNN!! (thanks John Stewart)
We, the people have become so distracted by things that are completely useless in the long run and it is done so intentionally. People need to realize we're being duped.