rimfire derringers... seriously?

[azrocks]

Don't like rimfire derringers? Simple. Don't buy one and don't carry one. You are making a lot of assumptions about those who chose to carry such a firearm as a primary or backup.

It's not your post count, but your attitude and assumptions that lead others on this forum to discount or question your unsupported opinions. In common with another poster, I carried a NAA .22 revolver when a different and larger handgun may have led to my losing a job. Aggressive dismissal or criticism of the firearms choices of others about whom you know nothing is likely to lead, yes, to some hostility. I don't have all the answers and neither do you. I conduct my own threat assessment and arm myself accordingly.

Amazing. Even when I include smileys and then go on to explain that my tone was a comic highlight to a subject I otherwise thought would be interesting to discuss, you're still going on about hurt feelings. What would be sufficient Coyote? Send y'all a fruit & cheese basket with "I'm sorry" spelled out across the top in raspberry glaze?

You even quoted all my researched objections pertinent to the subject at hand and then, instead of discussing / countering them, decided that instead you'd go on about how 'aggressive' I am.

I'll admit that, for a new guy, the tone of my post could be mistaken for arrogance. But after I go on to explain my motivations and you're still carrying on... give it up. I thought this was a gun discussion forum. Yet you'd rather discuss your feelings instead of guns. Interesting.

And yeah... it has EVERYTHING to do with my post count. This isn't exactly the first internet forum I've been involved with. They're all the same. All the old-timers blindly follow their primal instincts and assert their dominance by dismissing anything a new guy has to say. But it was my mistake to forget that lesson. I should have just stuck to the technical forums and left the general forum banter for the gossip circle. Which is exactly what I will do from now on.

Thanks to those who maintained a cool head and offered great info and/or good debate (Lysander, Acera, kBob,Gordon, Cooldill, Calaver, WYO, dodo, & goon).

 

[goon]

The derringer-like options I've considered owning are an ADC or Bond Arms in .45 Colt / .410 or a NAA Pug .22 Magnum. With the emergence of better .410 loads for handguns, I've found that some of them like the Federal 000 .410 loads are actually pretty good. I've shot them from a Contender, a .410 single barrel shotgun, and a Judge - the .410 loaded with buck shot is definitely not something to be trifled with at reasonable range. Some patterns have been better than I've gotten with 20 gauge No. 3 buck shot from a full-length shotgun with a modified choke!

I still think the O/U derringer in .410 / .45 would be cool, but I don't think it'd be a more effective defensive firearm than a J-frame .38. I also think the NAA Pug is a really neat little gun, but for the cost and not a lot more effort I could be carrying a J-frame or a small 9mm.

For my uses, they don't pass the cost/benefit analysis. But they're still cool, nostalgic, and useful for some people. I know one guy who carries one in addition to a rifle (usually a .375 H&H) as a last ditch bear gun. He keeps it in the breast pocket of his parka and has told me that if he had to, he might be able to use it in a "staple gun" type motion directly against a bear's head if attacked. Keep in mind - this guy is an experienced outdoorsman. He isn't a kook. For the weight and size, a little High Standard DAO .22 magnum derringer is worth the trouble to him as an absolute last ditch weapon.

 

[MedWheeler]

I'll admit that, for a new guy, the tone of my post could be mistaken for arrogance.

Of course it could. Thank you for acknowledging that.

We did just have a recent thread on the very subject. You certainly would not have been unwelcome joining in that discussion and reviving it some. What works in debate better, though, is well-articulated opinions backed by evidence, not trendy, celebrity-branded catch-phrases made famous by calling out stupidity. That pretty much is what rubbed a lot of us the wrong way, not opening a discussion on mini-revolvers. We all know their limitations. A pool hall full of 20-year smokers doesn't need someone coming in and telling them smoking can be bad for their health, then figuratively offering each of them "their sign."

Oh, I shot mine for the first time today. Pretty glad I was behind it. I see no situation in which it would be the only gun I have on me, but it might make a decent second gun.

 

[Sistema1927]

I guess that since my name wasn't mentioned in your post #26 that my experience with the NAA .22M didn't offer any "great info and/or good debate".

When you open a thread, belittle people's choices, and offer them "their sign" what exactly reception are you expecting? Even with the inclusion of "smilies" you come across as a condescending arrogant jerk. (I might just get a reprimand from the mods for that last comment, but I can think of no other fitting description.)

Additionally, it is obvious that you never heard what my Dad once told me: "When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging."

 

[ljnowell]

According to http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22mag.html, .22 mag out of a 2" barrel (the shortest they test) is subsonic with every round tested, most of which fell in the 800-900 fps range. Even if you were to just extrapolate the curve produced by the given data, a 1" barrel would produce velocities in the 600-800 fps range, but we know the closer we get to zero the more critical the loss of each inch, so I'd expect derringer velocities to be even further below those numbers. I think you'd be lucky to push 700fps out of even the lightest (25g) rounds, which puts you in low-range air rifle territory.



Not saying it's not capable of stopping someone. Just highly unlikely. And if it did stop someone, it would in most any case require you to be at pretty much point blank range (which is good... you don't want any more velocity loss!), with perfect shot placement to very specific locations of the body. And then only if you're lucky.

Your numbers aren't exactly jiving with real world experience.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-288266.html

 

[azrocks]

Your numbers aren't exactly jiving with real world experience.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-288266.html

A) My numbers, excepting my best-guess for 1" barrels, is pulled directly from the BallisticsByTheInch link I posted earlier, which is a real-world project that documents their entire testing process for peer review. That isn't to say their numbers are correct, but they're at a bare minimum an equal-opportunity contender for who's right and who's not.

B) I actually found another resource that seems to back up my best-guess. You'll notice all the 1" barrels produced velocities ranging from the low 600s to mid-700s, with the fastest round tested coming in at 751 fps (33g Remington). While my guess of 700 fps at 25g was a hair low, it was just a hair low. It should be noted, however, that at 1.8", this same round is pushing 1150 (which is consistent with the link you posted). Just as I suggested... once you start getting into 1" barrels, your velocity is going to drop off rapidly. Linky: https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/6/8/the-22-magnum-for-self-defense

C) NAA's own documentation cites 689 - 1021 fps in their 1" barrels, and 845-1282 fps in their 2" barrels, depending on load. So again, big difference between 1 & 2", although NAA's numbers with 1" barrels are a bit more optimistic than the other two resources I referenced. This is also consistent with the post you cited.

D) I think I've changed my mind, and may actually consider buying a 2" black widow

 

[ljnowell]

A) My numbers, excepting my best-guess for 1" barrels, is pulled directly from the BallisticsByTheInch link I posted earlier, which is a real-world project that documents their entire testing process for peer review. That isn't to say their numbers are correct, but they're at a bare minimum an equal-opportunity contender for who's right and who's not.



B) I actually found another resource that seems to back up my best-guess. You'll notice all the 1" barrels produced velocities ranging from the low 600s to mid-700s, with the fastest round tested coming in at 751 fps (33g Remington). While my guess of 700 fps at 25g was a hair low, it was just a hair low. It should be noted, however, that at 1.8", this same round is pushing 1150 (which is consistent with the link you posted). Just as I suggested... once you start getting into 1" barrels, your velocity is going to drop off rapidly. Linky: https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/6/8/the-22-magnum-for-self-defense



C) NAA's own documentation cites 689 - 1021 fps in their 1" barrels, and 845-1282 fps in their 2" barrels, depending on load. So again, big difference between 1 & 2", although NAA's numbers with 1" barrels are a bit more optimistic than the other two resources I referenced. This is also consistent with the post you cited.



D) I think I've changed my mind, and may actually consider buying a 2" black widow

Their documentation states that because of the drastic difference in different loads. BBTI has been questioned since the very beginning and using it to compare cartridges in actual firearms is spotty, at best.

Either way, that's real chrono data from the firearms in question. Much better than the dismal performance you presented.

 

[goon]

I think I've changed my mind, and may actually consider buying a 2" black widow.

I'm not sure what I'd use the Pug for, but that hasn't stopped me from wanting one. As someone else on THR once said... "If they'd engrave 'Swamp Angel" on the side of them, I'd buy two."

I'm sure that at some point I'll be in a gun store that's got one on sale and I'll fall for it.

 

[azrocks]

Their documentation states that because of the drastic difference in different loads. BBTI has been questioned since the very beginning and using it to compare cartridges in actual firearms is spotty, at best.

Either way, that's real chrono data from the firearms in question. Much better than the dismal performance you presented.

No, it's not much better.

I guessed 700 fps in a 1" barrel, and according to two separate data sources I referenced, I was pretty much right on the money. NAA's own tests showed the majority of loads out of 1" barrels posting numbers in the 600-900 fps range, so even from them I'm in the ballpark.

But you're right, the numbers for 2" barrels significantly are higher from 2 of the 3 sources, and I believe BBTI is likely at fault here (they even mention difficulty testing this particular barrel length). That being said, even with a 2" barrel, you're still subsonic with all but 2 loads which barely break the barrier (according to NAAs numbers), and those are with light (30/33g) bullets.

Practically speaking, a 2" wmr derringer ends up being about the equivalent of a .22lr shot from a service-sized pistol, with the 1" barrel the equivalent of a .22 short.

 

[azrocks]

I'm not sure what I'd use the Pug for, but that hasn't stopped me from wanting one. As someone else on THR once said... "If they'd engrave 'Swamp Angel" on the side of them, I'd buy two."

I'm sure that at some point I'll be in a gun store that's got one on sale and I'll fall for it.

LOL. The Pug was the first one I was drawn to when I pulled up the NAA site. It does have a certain appeal!

But I can't get past the (poor) performance of the 1" barrel.

 

[ljnowell]

No, it's not much better.



I guessed 700 fps in a 1" barrel, and according to two separate data sources I referenced, I was pretty much right on the money. NAA's own tests showed the majority of loads out of 1" barrels posting numbers in the 600-900 fps range, so even from them I'm in the ballpark.



But you're right, the numbers for 2" barrels significantly are higher from 2 of the 3 sources, and I believe BBTI is likely at fault here (they even mention difficulty testing this particular barrel length). That being said, even with a 2" barrel, you're still subsonic with all but 2 loads which barely break the barrier (according to NAAs numbers), and those are with light (30/33g) bullets.



Practically speaking, a 2" wmr derringer ends up being about the equivalent of a .22lr shot from a service-sized pistol, with the 1" barrel the equivalent of a .22 short.

That's a rosy way to paint your comments, but you left something out. You said 700 fps with 25 grain bullets. I posted chrono data of bullets of twice that weight at up to 200 fps past that. That's a bullet TWICE as heavy going about 25-30% faster. If you don't call that MUCH better than I sure don't know what in the works would be.

A great trait in a man is the ability to admit fault. Try it sometime.

 

[danez71]

azrocks,

You seem to have taken my post the wrong way.

Calling a gun a toy is not good any way you at look it unless maybe you're sitting around the camp fire with your buddies.

My comment regarding coming to the right place to be educated was a compliment to THR, not a slam to you.

You can choose to be overly sensitive and defensive, but that's on you and is no reason to lash out at me.

Regarding post counts... that certainly doesn't apply to me as I have a relatively low count for my time here and since I've been laid up for a few months now, my post count has jumed up recently.

I'm of the opinion that people should read more... post less... and shoot more.

 

[Pete D.]

count

Post counts.

First we need to know what this new-ish guy with only 27 posts means by "rimfire derringers".

A poor way to judge someone's knowledge and experience. He has 27 posts here....maybe thousands on other fora.
Pete

 

[kBob]

Pete,
Sorry about that, but what I was attempting to do was not put down az, but remind everyone he was new here.

I really wanted to know what he meant by derringer.

To me there is a HUGE difference between a 1950s era German made Remington o/U "copy" and a H-S DAO and an NAA.

Based on past BAD experiences I DO NOT encourage folks to own Remington 'clones' that do not have added safeties some of the modern American guns have.

I have and would carry an NAA revolver. My B-I-L has been carrying a H-S DAO now for thirty years and I keep telling him if he ever wants to get rid of it to let me know.

az,

As to how accurate Police are.......The Uniform Crime Index back before the Clinton years had some useful information, including data on firearms use.

Typically back then a police officer was almost twice as likely to miss as a civilian and likely to use about half again as many rounds to stop a fight.

When I was getting my BS (Crim, Florida State with AA centralized in Law Enforcement at Tallahassee CC) I spent a lot of time digging through the old UCI for numbers to aid me in various papers.

Since then, I can't remember if it was Kleck (SP?) or someone else, did a study of out comes in various assaults with regaurd to injury to victim and completion of crime. A knife for defense, such as the suggested pocket knife had among the worst outcomes. A gun had the best.

I personally feel that in the vast majority of cases that might require deadly force any gun beats no gun.

-kBob

 

[azrocks]

That's a rosy way to paint your comments, but you left something out. You said 700 fps with 25 grain bullets. I posted chrono data of bullets of twice that weight at up to 200 fps past that. That's a bullet TWICE as heavy going about 25-30% faster. If you don't call that MUCH better than I sure don't know what in the works would be.

A great trait in a man is the ability to admit fault. Try it sometime.

You don't follow the bouncing ball very well, do you?

Why don't you slow down, take a breath, and actually try to absorb what you may or may not be reading.

I said I guessed 700 fps in a 25g weight. My guess was based on a 1" barrel. And as I've already pointed out - in 1" barrels - my guess was pretty darned close.

Your numbers are for a 1 5/8" barrel. Apples & oranges.

All 3 of the data sources I've used... including NAA's own figures... clearly show a large decrease in performance between 1" & 2" barrel versions.

BTW, I absolutely did already admit that - for 2" barrels - BBTI's numbers appear to not agree with the other two data sources.

Finally, thanks so much for the lesson on being a man. I'm so privileged. My Peter Pan days are surely behind me now!

 

[azrocks]

As to how accurate Police are.......The Uniform Crime Index back before the Clinton years had some useful information, including data on firearms use.

Typically back then a police officer was almost twice as likely to miss as a civilian and likely to use about half again as many rounds to stop a fight.

When I was getting my BS (Crim, Florida State with AA centralized in Law Enforcement at Tallahassee CC) I spent a lot of time digging through the old UCI for numbers to aid me in various papers.

Since then, I can't remember if it was Kleck (SP?) or someone else, did a study of out comes in various assaults with regaurd to injury to victim and completion of crime. A knife for defense, such as the suggested pocket knife had among the worst outcomes. A gun had the best.

I personally feel that in the vast majority of cases that might require deadly force any gun beats no gun.

-kBob

I appreciate that input, kBob, and to be honest, this thread and the research I've done to support my initial bias has actually caused me to rethink my position on these tiny guns. I can see some limited usefulness. And depending on one's physical capabilities & training, might very well be a better choice than a knife as a backup defensive tool.

I still don't see it as being anything other than a contact-distance weapon, as without very precise shot placement it's unlikely to do any fight-stopping damage, but I'm sure the muzzle blast alone is enough to frighten away a certain percentage of people who otherwise might not be scared off by a knife (even though they should be).

 

[ljnowell]

You don't follow the bouncing ball very well, do you?



Why don't you slow down, take a breath, and actually try to absorb what you may or may not be reading.



I said I guessed 700 fps in a 25g weight. My guess was based on a 1" barrel. And as I've already pointed out - in 1" barrels - my guess was pretty darned close.



Your numbers are for a 1 5/8" barrel. Apples & oranges.



All 3 of the data sources I've used... including NAA's own figures... clearly show a large decrease in performance between 1" & 2" barrel versions.



BTW, I absolutely did already admit that - for 2" barrels - BBTI's numbers appear to not agree with the other two data sources.



Finally, thanks so much for the lesson on being a man. I'm so privileged. My Peter Pan days are surely behind me now!

I appreciate your attitude. The truth is with your posting style you probably won't be around much more anyway.

Have a nice day, and enjoy your incorrect assumptions and false beliefs.

 

[Browning]

At the range these would be 'effective', any pocketknife would be more effective.

As a healthcare professional in the EMS setting I'd have to disagree with you there. Contact gunshot wounds are often lethal just so long as the shot placement's there.

For all the patients with stab wounds I've had I've never seen one expire after just one stab wound. The ones that do usually have 10 to 30 punctures and lacerations and half of those are usually to the hands, wrists and forearms as they throw their hands up to block the blow. Unless the victim is handicapped in some way the stabber has to usually get after it in order for the attack to be lethal.

Contrast that with even a single shot from a .22LR or a .22WMR.

 

[CDW4ME]

A P3AT or LCP 380 is easy to conceal and offers 7 rounds.
Pocket 380 > derringer.

 

[azrocks]

I appreciate your attitude. The truth is with your posting style you probably won't be around much more anyway.

I was respectful to you right up to the point you became disrespectful to me. Sorry if I didn't play the part of the submissive as you apparently were expecting.

 

[azrocks]

As a healthcare professional in the EMS setting I'd have to disagree with you there. Contact gunshot wounds are often lethal just so long as the shot placement's there.

For all the patients with stab wounds I've had I've never seen one expire after just one stab wound. The ones that do usually have 10 to 30 punctures and lacerations and half of those are usually to the hands, wrists and forearms as they throw their hands up to block the blow. Unless the victim is handicapped in some way the stabber has to usually get after it in order for the attack to be lethal.

Contrast that with even a single shot from a .22LR or a .22WMR.

I appreciate that, Browning! I think I'm beginning to view them as more effective than I did before, and that's thanks to y'alls input. However - and I don't mean to undermine your experience in the least - if they've made it to you, they survived the fight, so which one is the best fight-stopper (knife vs .22 derringer) is still questionable. Does anything in your realm of experience shed some light on that aspect?

As you say, shot placement is key. If you don't mind me asking, what percentage (roughly) of patients have you seen with single wounds from a .22 (any loading) that were incapacitated (unable to move/fight), compared to those that weren't, when they made it to you? My guess is a small minority (or none), but that's just a guess. If one of your patients was shot in a location other than the CNS, heart, or really big artery... would you expect them to be incapacitated in a fight (not counting psychological causes)? Not dead an hour or two later, but unable to fight/move right now?

We also can't forget that (I assume) you don't know what firearm made the wound. A round out of a derringer is going to have substantially poorer performance than out of a 'normal' sized handgun. If I had to guess, Id say the number of people shot with very-short-barreled weapons like these is a very small fraction of all gunshot victims. It's entirely possible you've never seen a wound produced by a .22lr/wmr from 1-2" barreled firearm. (I could be completely wrong here - please let me know if I am.)

 

[Plastikosmd]

I never figured these small rf, or maybe any of the short barrel derringers were for range work, even 7 yards. ( nice shooting by one of the posters) I always thought, at the furthest would be across the card table, more likely shoved into the target face, gut etc and boom

 

[yugorpk]

I have a friend that came out of a bar and found someone stealing his car stereo . He chased the guy 3 blocks and into a dead alley. The pulled out a .22 derringer and from 30-40 feet away in the dark shot my friend with said .22 derringer. The bullet destroyed one kidney and went out the other side. He lived and the shooter ended up with a 10 year sentence when he was apprehended but I for one do not discount the power of the .22. Is it a one shot man stopper? Nope . It can be if you get lucky but like any gun its likely to stop hostilities pretty quick.

 

[MedWheeler]

Considering that an overwhelming majority of DGU incidents don't require the assailant be immediately incapacitated to end the threat, I'd say the "stats" don't support the claim that these, or any, handguns should never be used for self-defense. In fact, most assailants cease being a threat even when missed by defensive fire (of those even fired upon; well over 99.99 percent are not.)

There is never a clear-cut gun that's "enough", but there certainly is the option of "more" gun. Working up from the NAA mini-revolvers, those choices are abundant.

Most of us ventured out readily at one time unarmed. Having "only" a mini-.22 is a step above that state in which we once felt comfortable. A small step, to be sure, but a step anyway (I've chosen to take a few more.)

 

[SoonerMedic]

In my experience as a medic, I've run on several calls in my few years of working the streets in my small Oklahoma hometown. I can't tell you how many of them were fatal, but I know for a fact that we had one fatality within the last year from a .22 and it was a one and done to the head.
When you're staring down the barrel of a gun, it doesn't matter the caliber. They all look like bazookas.