Risks vs benefits of muzzle contact in self defense?

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Carbonator

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In a self defense situation using a revolver, is there any benefit to shooting with the revolver shoved firmly into the target vs shooting with the muzzle a few inches away? Suppose a guy with a knife is on top of you and gun retention is not a factor. Have there been any tests done on this?

Conversely, how likely would pushing the revolver into the target and then firing cause the gun to explode/kaboom from over pressure? I have seen Elmer Fudd's face get blasted when Bugs puts his finger into the barrel.

Risks vs benefits? :scrutiny:
 
Well I highly doubt that the gun would be harmed by it, the worst thing would be corrosion from blood getting on it, especially since it would most likely end up uncleaned in an evidence locker for months at least.

And the gas escaping from the muzzle would make a mean contact wound, worse than the bullet itself until the bullet keeps going and the gas stops.
 
An auto could be problematic because you might push the slide out of battery, not a definite, but it is a very real possibility, so you probably don't want to try that with an auto.
 
I remember reading some test Massad Ayoob ran in a slaughter house for a magazine a few years back.

The effects of the shots are multiplied by the expanding gases entering the body, the affect on the gun was blow back of tissue which could cause a malfunction
 
I have heard ( sorry no links, perhaps Ayoob knows ) that at contact ranges the blast from the gun power can actually do more damage than the bullet.

There was a TV police drama once called Hill Street Blues. In one episode one of the officers tried to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head with a revolver. His colleagues had replaced his real ammo with blanks and in the story all that happened was that the office had some minor burn marks on his scalp.

In 1984 at a time that Hill Street Blues was still in production on another set an actor, perhaps lulled into thinking that blanks are harmless because of the above show, shot himself on the set of the CBS show CoverUP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum

He died.

This article attributes the damage to the wad in the blank but it was really the high pressure gasses produced by the gun powder that caused the fatal damage.

Again without any links ( can't find them all ) I once remember reading in one of Ayoob's books that if he went blind he would carry a 38 revolver loaded with powerful blanks and then make sure the muzzle was against the body of any assailant knowing that the gun blast would do the job.

Like was said before though, most autos would jam or not fire because the slide was pushed out of battery. One of the benefits of revolvers vs autos.
 
It would certainly be nasty

Contact wounds are REALLY NASTY by nature...
Certainly more effective as far a hydrostatic shock values..

It would have to be a really bad, bear hugging fight for my life before I would WANT to make a contact shot.. in other words I would prefer not to get that close

However, in a situation, I would probably be trying to mate my front sight with his backbone while I pulled the trigger... Believe me,, the assailant would NOT be happy with the result...

Blood being corrosive, yes to a degree, it has water in it.. but it is not as bad as one would think. I have hauled several into court, or had them examined months after being tagged in evidence.. the corrosion from blood spatter was never that noticeable.. sweat and other elements seems to have done more harm..
 
The human body is not designed to contain many 10s of thousands of PSI of 2000+ F gas.

If it gets into the chest, the lungs are collapsed.
Instantly.
Completely.

The damage of even a blank at contact is more than enough to be lethal, even through the skull.
 
The human body is not designed to contain many 10s of thousands of PSI of 2000+ F gas.

If it gets into the chest, the lungs are collapsed.
Instantly.
Completely.

The damage of even a blank at contact is more than enough to be lethal, even through the skull.

Back in the 80's the actor Jon Hexum unintentionally killed h[imself] while on set with a 44mag firing blanks. Was "playing" around (russian roulette) put it to his head and drove a 44magnum size piece of skull bone into his brain.
 
Many years ago.... I was a beginning mate on charter boats in south Florida. In that era we killed most sharks for "trophies" (glad we no longer do that) to be sent to the taxidermist. The standard way we killed them was with a 12ga. bangstick and it was a true contact wound every time (the Pomapanette bang sticks we used had large brass heads that floated on a fixed firing pin mounted on an aluminum pole). Poke the animal with the bang stick and it fired a contact shot every time. We never worried much about the size shot or the power of the 12ga shell - it was usually low brass and as cheap a round as possible. The contact wound was absolutely deadly since every bit of the gas went down into the head of the shark. From what I've seen of contact wounds I hope I'm never on the receiving end of one....
 
Only real tactical problem I see is...

The only real problem that I see with a contact wound, and this is PURELY from a tactical aspect is.. that some semi auto's may be pushed our of battery, the most easy to push out of battery is the 1911.. (take and EMPTY/UNLOADED one, safety off, and push it's muzzle into your cupped hand, and watch the slide come back just enough to prevent it from firing.) there are other brands/models of pistols that are susceptible to the same condition with hard muzzle pressure.

Also the pressure on the muzzle may prevent the weapon from properly cycling and properly picking up and cambering a second round in the (doubtful) event for the need of a second shot... me want it to work, just in-case he brought a friend...

With revolvers this is not an issue... with semi auto's,, contact wounds would be equally devastating, but if you are pushing hard into the target, be prepared for a very rapid rack and clear.

I stated in a earlier post that I would be trying to push into his backbone... that may not be the best option with an automatic... contact OK,, hard forced contact.. may not be a good choice... but under stress... know one knows how they will react until it happens...
 
The reason I carry a handgun is to avoid just such a situation.
But the gas/powder damage would be considerable, fixed-barrel auto or revolvers obviously being less prone to malfunction. The last thing I'd worry about is corrosion on my weapon, I'll likely retire and enshrine any gun that I use to save my life anyway.
 
I've always thought about the press contact scenario. If you ever get into a situation where you have to draw and shoot, press contact may be neccessary. This being the case, my main concern is (also) the problem of an auto going out of battery. I actually tested this by loading my CC guns that are auto with snap caps. I pressed them into my bed, into my stomach, into my head, into my thigh, into my buttocks, into my back and into some other parts of my body that replicated areas where I may have to press or wedge the muzzle of the gun if ever needed. All of the places put the gun out of battery even with the slightest push and I wasn't able to fire. I've come to realize that this is a major problem when it comes to the press contact tactic if using an auto as a gun, so I've come up with a slight solution.

My solution was to, instead of pressing the muzzle directly onto the surface, train yourself to blade the muzzle a bit laterally from wherever you draw. What I mean is, instead of practicing drawing, then bringing the muzzle up to wherever your contact point is and pressing, practice drawing and instead of bringing the gun up or to wherever, just practice blading immediately from the point you clear the holster and "point shoot" it from that position. For example, if you carry 3 o'clock or somewhere near the 2-4 o'clock range, practice drawing and shooting with the gun slightly bent to the right from the hip, and vice versa from 8-10 o'clock for south paws. If you ankle carry and draw from a knee-down crouch, practice drawing, bending your wrist from the draw position and point shooting from there. If you ankle carry and preffered method of draw is sitting on your butt, practice drawing and shooting a bit laying down in that same draw position. This tactic trades a guarantee press contact hit ratio for faster draw to fire ratio with less emphasis on guaranteed hit but more on the getting a round off quicker. If your close enough for press contact, point shooting from these immediate draw positions shouldn't be too much more difficult to land hits than press contact, for we are talking about marginal distances of less than a yard here. I would have to post pictures to fully explain what I mean, but when you get the hang of it, you will never have to put too much thought into press contact, for you will already have the jump on drawing and shooting with this technique. Think of it this way: The guy is close enough to grab your clothes or your limbs or put hands on. This is most likely always going to be about a yard or less, because I don't know many people with a reach of more than that. The time it takes to draw, and press the gun's muzzle to the BG's body is going to take a set amount of time, be it not milliseconds. Take that same scenario and instead of drawing and pressing, draw and immediately point shoot from the get go with a wrist bend. With practice, you can learn to bend your wrist into a point shooting position from the immediate draw. Many people who hip carry call this "hip fire." It's not exactly point shooting, excuse me, but it's more of a reaction hip shot.

Try it one day. Go to a range that allows concealed drawing practice shots and practice it. Stand about 1-2 yards away from target, close enough to simulate someone being close enough to grab you. Practice your fastest draw, but instead of raising the gun's sights or bringing any sort of sight picture, instead, practice blading your wrist in the general direction of the biggest part of your target. You WILL be surprised at how accurate you can be at that distance, even when the sights are nowhere near your face. I practice this every time I go to a certain outdoor range and I'm actually able to get some pattern of controlled groups.

I personally think stand off training should be mandatory in all SD classes, because many SD situations do happen to occur at stand off distances.
 
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I'm just about certain it wouldn't hurt the gun. However, the gases coming out are going to blast a hole big enough to drive a car through.
The only semi related circumstance I know of regarding gases from a revolver is someone I knwo who lost a finger. It was litterally sliced off by the pressure that escapes through the gap. But that seems to be a significant difference, his fingers were in the path of the cylinder gap, not the barrel.
 
I've seen a contact wound to the upper thigh, very nasty thigh wound. They were initally worried about trauma to the arteries do to the big wound and pressures; also a heck of a burn.
I would imagine in large caliber snub nosed revolvers a contact shot could make enough of a wound channel that residual flesh could gum up the cylinder and works.
I have read that one way to make contact shots with a auto pistol is to tightly place your thumb behind the slide and fire to prevent the possiblity of engaging the safety.
 
tightly place your thumb behind the slide and fire
Not only hurt a bit but impressive as your thumb gets cocked like the hammer and lays limply back over your wrist, pointing straight at the elbow.

Larry
 
"tightly place your thumb behind the slide and fire"

Emphasis on the word "tightly".

This will not bend your thumb backward, or rip it off.

A solid grip with the strong hand thumb up and pushing forward on the rear of the slide will keep the slide in battery on a hard contact shot.

I speak not as a great guru, but as someone who has actually tried this - recently - using a GLOCK 21 loaded with 185-grain GDHP. It was pretty easy to keep the slide in place. No extraction or ejection.

You needed an immediate tap/rack to get back in play - but you can fire an auto in contact.
 
You needed an immediate tap/rack to get back in play - but you can fire an auto in contact.
and a quick wipe of the residual people "goo" off the weapon? LOL
 
This will not bend your thumb backward, or rip it off.
No, but it may place your thumb in a position where a good twist of the gun (from your attacker) could more easily injure the thumb. Reference destructive disarm techniques.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but if, as the OP says. "a guy with a knife is on top of you," take any and every shot you can, right now. Don't worry a second about whether it's contact or not, because you don't have that second.

In terms of training, I would start shooting at retention position and continue firing as I retreated from the target, eventually getting to two-handed aimed stance. If that retention position end up being muzzle contact one day, so be it--and I'm in deep, deep stuff.
 
Perhaps I'm wrong, but if, as the OP says. "a guy with a knife is on top of you," take any and every shot you can, right now. Don't worry a second about whether it's contact or not, because you don't have that second.
My last word on the subject; again with an auto it dont work that way.
With a revolver (as stated in the OP's original post) it's pretty much a non issue, but the auto pistol may not fire at all without that thumb pressure, or some other pressure to secure the slide when the muzzle contacts the attackers body...
 
I cant seem to find the product at this time, but a short while ago I came across a muzzle guard for the 1911 to prevent out of battery issues with muzzle contact. I would think that there are several ways to overcome this issue with an auto, maybe even a slightly extended barrel.

Either way, the wound from a contact shot, or even one that was withing a few inches, would most likely be pretty devastating to the target, and probably not cause any issues that would prevent the weapon from functioning.
 
again with an auto it dont work that way.
Well, let's see:

--fixed-barrel autos (blowbacks, retarded blowbacks and gas-operated pistols) work exactly that way
--if you're plannng on being at contact distance with an attacker, sure, use a revolver. There's a reason that "belly guns" were (are) revolvers.
--training to a retention position first shot gives you the best chance of avoiding slide out of battery. Not saying this is a position you want to be in, but your fight will be what it is, not what you want it to be.
--if, with the knife attacker on you, and you in retention postion, he somehow has enough contact with your muzzle to put your semi-auto out of battery, and you notice that, and you have the ability and presence of mind to pause, realize you need to be out of muzzle contact, so you are able to retract the pistol farther back than retention position, and that serves to put the pistol back in battery, or you put your thumb up on the back of the slide to overcome the pressure placed on the barrel and slide by your attacker, and do so in such a way that it doesn't block or retard the hammer coming forward, and if either way the pause doesn't get you stabbed fatally...

Then you got it! It's a nice contingency plan to have.
I came across a muzzle guard for the 1911 to prevent out of battery issues

You can achieve pretty much the same effect with any laser or flashlight mounted to a tactical rail, if the light extends a bit past the muzzle. Perhaps most impressive guard was the "tactical block" made for the CZ SP-01 Tactical, with its removable bayonet.

4gco4.jpg


Of course, either gives you problems with concealability and available holster choice.
 
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If you've ever seen the movie "In Bruges" there is a scene where a man and women try to con the protagonist out of some money with a blank loaded revolver. The protagonist (Colin Farrell) gets a hold of the gun and when the bad guy charges at him with a knife Colin shoots it into his eye at close range, blinding him. Guess I was just impressed that the moviemakers would recognize the potency of blank rounds, although they do make a few gun goofs in the movie.

What about a Berreta 92 style gun, doesn't the muzzle extend pass the slide?
 
"tightly place your thumb behind the slide and fire"

Emphasis on the word "tightly".

This will not bend your thumb backward, or rip it off.

Don't think I'll ever try it. Never been fortunate enough to attend operator school to learn this tier 1 technique..:cool:
 
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