Road rage scenario - what would you do?

[dave3006]

Let's say you are just getting out of your car at the local mall. As you are exiting, a guy about 20 away is approaching you saying that you cut him off at the last stop sign. You have no clue what he is talking about. He has a baseball bat in his hands and says he is going to beat the crap out of you. You draw your legal weapon (you have a CCW) and tell him to freeze. He does. THEN, he flings the bat away and starts coming towards you muttering something about how you can't shoot him because he is unarmed and he wants you to fight like a man. He is getting very close, unarmed.

Do you shoot? What is your plan?

Note:

1. He is your size.
2. You can't run, your kids are out of the car and too small to keep up.
3. The weapon is already in the scene and it is tough to put back because you carry in deep concealment (ankle holster, smartcarry, pocket...)

 

[OF]

If my kids were there, I'd shoot him. If it was just me, I'd likely get in my car and lock the doors if I had time. If there wasn't time, I'd likely shoot him. He's not getting a hand on me, he's not getting my gun.

I wonder if this is one of those times when a 'warning shot' might be appropriate?

- Gabe

 

[clipse]

My thought(maybe wrong) is that he still may have a knife or something on him. I don't know. I do know that he is endangering my kids. I don't actually have kids but if I did I would not let some jerk like that come close to them in a threatening manner. Also I don't know what kind of fighting skill he has. He may be a black belt or he maybe a a guy that watches too many kung fu movies. I would feel that life and/or limb is in danger and would most likely shoot if I was in that situation. If I had 30 minutes to sit there and think about all my options I may come up with something else but for now shooting is the safest for me and my kids.

What do you guys think?


clipse

 

[sanchezero]

Run.

If he chases you then it might be a good time to OC him and kick him in the junk. You do have your nuclear nasal spray don't you?



Edit: mea culpa, I just saw that kids were a problem. skip the run part and go straight to the beat down after applying hot sauce.

 

[OF]

Anyone crazy enough to charge a drawn gun is crazy enough to do serious damage.

- Gabe

 

[TallPine]

Warning shot COM

Repeat as necessary

 

[atk]

If it would have been a good shoot when you drew, it's still a good shoot. A reasonable person does not charge a gun. Anyone who believes that you "cannot" shoot them because some piece of paper down at the legislature is going to magically get between the pin and the primer is not reasonable.

 

[The Goose]

Funny story. I actually had this happen except I was not armed. I pulled into a parking lot and as I was getting out of my car this guy pulled up and jumped out of his car with a bat screaming that I had cut him off coming out of a toll booth. He was not running at me, but advancing. I just yelled "ok lets go" and went straight at him. He dropped the bat and ran away. Go figure. He did not even get back in his car which he had left in the middle of the travel lane in the lot. He just ran. I picked up the bat and was sorely tempted to do something bad to his car, but then recovered and realized that I would probably get into trouble. I am not suggesting this as a strategy, but I figure that anything you do under pressure that works out was the right strategy. Luckily there were no kids or wife with me and since my appointment was not that important I just got in my car and left so that I would not come out to find damage done. I will say that it seems like a very bad idea to threaten someone with a weapon if you do not intend to follow through. Maybe he was having a bad day.

 

[sanchezero]

If it would have been a good shoot when you drew, it's still a good shoot.

Negative. The level of force has significantly de-escalated. You lost your chance by hesitating (why hesitate anyway? you don't draw unless you fear imminent, unavoidable grevious injury or death so you shoulda been pulling the trigger) and now have to deal with a new situation.

Sure you can shoot, but you're likey to take it in the rump in court. I understand the 'better to be judged by 12' argument but IMO this scenario underscores the most common problem among gun owners: total reliance on a single tool to do a wide variety of jobs.

In your life, you are much more likely to need to defend yourself with your hands or some nonlethal device, even if it's a lethal force confrontation, and you need to be capable of that. While it's possible that the level of force could escalate again (he pulls a knife, puts one of your kids in a hammerlock, etc) and this point you need to just kick his azz. (This is where trigger finger discipline becomes so important since you'll probably give him a coupla knocks to the old brainbucket with your gat.)

 

[clubsoda22]

Start intimidation cycle. "you ready to bet your life on that?!" "don't make me kill you!" and so forth. If he continues to close...well, no one can say you didn't warn him. And there is still a bat on the ground.

When the cops show up, you say "he came at me and my kids with that bat on the ground over there. When i drew my gun he inexplicably threw the bat and charged me. He must have been some kind of derranged lunatic because I warned him not to come closer or i'd shoot, but he didn't listen. I was in fear for the lives of my children and myself. I was forced to shoot him to defend my children and myself."

Very few places you'd get arrested with a story like that. And if you are arrested, your call your attorney and the media. Headlines like "man arrested for defending his children from derranged lunatic road rager" make the cops look bad.

Anyone who advances on a gun pointed at them when they are unarmed is a lunatic and can be safely assumed to be a threat who will kill you.

 

[TallPine]

In your life, you are much more likely to need to defend yourself with your hands or some nonlethal device, even if it's a lethal force confrontation, and you need to be capable of that.

Some of us are not capable of that, for one reason or another.

So you think you should get into a hand fight while carrying a gun ...? Now THAT sounds like a good way to have it taken away and used against you.

I ain't gonna let anybody walk up and start pounding on me, if I am armed at the time.

Are you an anti or what ...?

 

[sanchezero]

Some of us are not capable of that, for one reason or another.

Then you can reasonably claim fear of unavoidable injury yadda yadda and blaze away. Most cannot.

So you think you should get into a hand fight while carrying a gun ...? Now THAT sounds like a good way to have it taken away and used against you.

This is what I'm talking about. The vast majority of CCWerrs have not prepared for the those times they may need to use force, but not lethal force. We all know many CCWers don't even really learn how to shoot well. Of the group that does, many of them don't bother to learn how to retain their weapon in a conflict. Not every person who yells at you, pushes you, grabs you, kicks you in the jimmy, smacks you, or spits on you can be shot without you spending the rest of your life in jail.

Most of us are more likely to be accosted by an angry, drunk, unarmed panhandler than an armed robber. Personally, I'd rather run. If i can't run I'd rather not do anything thats gonna push me into the totally effed up court system if I can avoid it. If I can't avoid it (this is the key by which you'll be judged) then I'll start shooting or stabbing.

Lucky for me tho, I don't have kids and I'm dan ranked in runfu .

Are you an anti or what ...?

 

[El Tejon]

BTDT.

He kept the bat and showed it to me. I kept my pistol and showed it to him. He ran one way, I another. Police could not find him.

 

[dave3006]

There are some excellent replies in this thread. I particularly like the possibility that he still could have a weapon you don't see (or at least that is going to be your story). Also, only a crazy person charges a man with a gun. Verbal commands also sound like an excellent idea. I will need to give the warning shot idea some thought.

The toughest part about something like this is the fact that it is hard to de-escalate your response once the gun is out. It is a remote situation. But, it is possible.

 

[Tracy Hightower]

Sanchezero is giving good advice. You cannot shoot people for threatening to whip you ???. If that ??? whipping escalates to the point of losing consciousness or to the point of serious bodily injury then you can use deadly force but until then you just gotta take the ??? whippin if you do not have the ability to fight back and prevail or run. You cannot shoot people for what they might do or because of what might happen, it is about what he does do and what does happen. You will find in the vast majority of confrontations a gun is not the appropriate weapon. It will usually be verbal, fists or pepper spray. What, you carry a gun and not pepper spray? Tom Givens is fond of saying that "If all you have is a hammer then everything begins to look like nails. Don't let a gun be the only means you have of defending yourself as it will hardly ever be the appropriate weapon. The old saying about bringing a knife to a gunfight is funny but bringing a gun to a fistfight can get you some time in prison.

 

[Penforhire]

Getting back in your car sounds like the smart move. You can just lock it up and wait or else drive away. Also a good time to dial 911 and describe your encounter (he who calls the cops first wins...).

 

[MrAcheson]

Headlines like "man arrested for defending his children from derranged lunatic road rager" make the cops look bad.

Yeah but headlines like "man dead after road rage attack" sell more papers and are far more likely. Don't assume that the paper will take your side. Most reporters are liberals and would probably be in the "did he do anything that deserved death?" or "did you really have to shoot him" school

why hesitate anyway? you don't draw unless you fear imminent, unavoidable grevious injury or death so you shoulda been pulling the trigger

You "hesitate" in order to give the other guy a verbal warning and a chance to save his own life. In many states this is required if it is possible. If you draw and shoot without a verbal warning, you better not have had time to give it.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Getting back in the car seems to be the best option given what is described, being as you supposedly can't run for some reason. I don't see the kids being in the car as a reason you can't run, but that is what is stated.

I am not sure you can't go ahead and shoot. Contrary to what was stated, the lunatic tossing away the bat lowers his offensive power, but the situation is NOT de-escalated as he does in fact charge.

Warning shots, unless COM, are often a very poor idea. Other than the bad guy, where are you going to shoot your warning shot there in the mall parking lot?

Dave, I like the twist in your scenario where you note that he is getting very close but is unarmed. As a person defending myself and my kids, all I know is that he has abandoned a bat, but I do NOT know that the guy is unarmed.

He was a threat to me and my kids and expressed his willingness to harm us.

I have no doubt I will do fine in court. The kids angle will play out nicely in my favor.

 

[Blackhawk 6]

You "hesitate" in order to give the other guy a verbal warning and a chance to save his own life. In many states this is required if it is possible. If you draw and shoot without a verbal warning, you better not have had time to give it.


ST-- BANG -- OP!!

 

[Cosmoline]

It's a tricky situation. A few options present themselves:

--Kick him where it counts, as hard as possible. Then kick him in the head. In short fight a mean, dirty fight.

--Shoot him where it won't kill him (not a good idea unless you're an MD and a crack shot)

--Clock him with the weapon (only works with big handguns--prob. too big for ccw)

--Cap off a round into a backstop (very risky, and may not scare him off)

--Shoot him in a serious spot, and try to argue you feared for your life. This is a tricky one.

--I'd vote for walking away with the kids and ignoring him. If he actually attacks you and injures you, empty the handgun into his chest. Someone who would press the attack beyond a threat when you have kids and are walking away is darn close to a lethal threat because they're acting completely insane.

In no case would I shoot him for merely threatening.

 

[MrFreeze]

Here's what the state of Florida has to say about situations like this:

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

Here is one example from the above site. Yes, I know that kids may change the situation, but that's the beauty of THR SHTF posts.

Q. Can't I protect myself if someone starts hitting me?

A. Even if someone starts a fight with you, you must make every reasonable effort consistent with your own safety to avoid the use of deadly force, including retreating from someone attacking you. Running away from someone who has insulted or punched you may offend your instincts to uphold your honor. However, as the Second District Court of Appeal has said: "The use of deadly force against another human being (instead of running away) is not countenanced by law even if that force is in response to conduct of human beings who act like animals."

Example: At a convenience store gas pump, a man got into an argument with other customers who were drinking heavily. Three of them approached the man and beat on him while he stood hunched in the open doorway of his car. Armed with a pocket knife, he resorted to stabbing his attackers, killing one of them.

This man was convicted of manslaughter because he pulled the knife before his attack began. This showed that he anticipated the attack and chose to pull a knife and stand his ground instead of getting in his car and leaving.

The court upheld his conviction and contrasted his behavior with the behavior of a man in another case, who was relentlessly stalked by his attacker. He kept retreating from his attacker, begging him to leave him alone, and finally he fired a shot into the ground. When his attacker kept coming at him, he fired a second and fatal shot. The court said that, unlike the man at the gas station, the person being pursued had no choice but to use deadly force.

Travis

 

[SMLE]

Negative. The level of force has significantly de-escalated.

I totally disagree. How do you know he didn't ditch the bat to go for a knife or gun? The level of force may be about to go way the hell UP. I'll give him ONE warning to stop, and if he keeps advancing he's getting hosed with 40 cal Sabers COM as long as he's standing. In New Mexico there is no "duty to retreat" BS. If I feel he is far enough away, and I can follow rule #4, I might give him a warning shot. If there are kids behind me, it's protective instinct time. I'll take my chances in court .

 

[cool45auto]

I'm with Tall Pine.

 

[Horsesense]

How about placing your hand on the gun, in preparation to draw, and saying "I'm sorry about that, please forgive me" if he keeps coming, say "I said I'm sorry now DON’T COME ANY CLOSER!" if he still advances within an unacceptable distance, draw and fire.

Drawing to a standoff is not very tactical.

 

[artherd]

As soon as you draw, you YELL: "FACE DOWN, ON THE GROUND, NOW!!!"

As he complys, "I am placing you under Citizen's Arrest, you will be detained untill Police arrive and place you under formal arrest. Untill that time, if you resist arrest in ANY WAY, I will use nessicary force including lethal force to subdue you as provided me by law."

If he does not comply, YELL: "STOP OR I WILL SHOOT" and if he takes one more step, then three warning shots. Two COM, one to the head. Repeat as nessicary.

With all this yelling, you are sure to have whitnesses on your side.

Bare hands can be a deadly weapon. Just because an assailant is not carrying other arms does NOT mean he cannot commit murder.