Road rage scenario - what would you do?

[Double Naught Spy]

Baseball bat, - lethal force or significant bodily harm, both count the same in response.

It helps if the witness substantiates everything you claim, but seeing part of it will hopefully provide enough support to quell any doubts. The problems come when the witnesses see something contrary or interject their own political views on the situation, such as insisting you didn't need to respond in the manner you responded.

I don't really see a problem with this scenario. You were in fear for your life from an agressive person who threatened you with lethal force or severe bodily harm and charged you. The judge and jury will be asked to consider, "What would a normal prudent person do in this situation, with children to defend, against a charging maniac?"

 

[OEF_VET]

ksnecktieman,

I've got to disagree with you in regards to your position that you will go to jail anytime you use lethal force. There was an attempted car-jacking here in Nashville last summer where the victim used lethal force to defend himself. IIRC, the actor opened the driver's-side back door of an SUV and climbed in, as it was stopped at a traffic light. He then told the driver to drive or else he (the actor) would kill him. The driver reacted by pulling his legal CCW from under the seat, opened his door, slid out, turned, and put a couple rounds of .44 SPL into the BG. The cops ruled it justified and did not arrest the driver. The driver was never charged with any crime, nor did he ever spend any time in jail.

So, as evidenced by the above incident, your assertation that an individual who uses deadly force will ALWAYS end up in jail is false. Maybe that's how it would play out in KS, but not here in the Volunteer state. Maybe it has something to do with us having CCW, I don't know.

Frank

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

Wondernine-- the presence of kids was a tactically important aspect of the scenario, as was the presence of a ccw.

Seeing as I do not have kids or a CHP, if I were to respond based on my own situation, the result would be very different from one that arises from the scenario (for the record, it would be "Run Away! Run Away" )

 

[clubsoda22]

My responce was based on the fact that the scenario started after the gun was drawn. I would have started the scenario before that. Pepper spray, run.

I don't like the "get into your car and lock the door" idea. Next thing you know a bat's gonna bust though your window and you're gonna get ripped out of your car.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Don't pull till he's close enough to be bashing on you...

That would be extremely foolish.

...you[']r[e] not actually endangered until then.

So, so very wrong. Ever heard of the Tueller Drill? (http://www.recguns.com/Sources/XI3.html)

The "Tueller drill" is named for Sgt. Dennis Tueller, Salt Lake City Police, who also appears in this video. In 1983, he published the article "How Close Is Too Close" in SWAT magazine (Survival Weapons and Tactics). In this article, he discussed the results of a series of tests he had run. His tests showed that, with people of various ages, weights, and heights, they could on average close a distance of 21 feet in about 1.5 seconds. That time -- 1.5 seconds -- happened to be the "drill time" taught by Jeff Cooper at GunSite for drawing a handgun and firing two aimed shots. Knowing that people who have been shot do not always -- or perhaps even often -- fall down instantly, or otherwise stop dead in their tracks, Tueller concluded that a person armed with a knife or club at the so called "intermediate range" of 21 feet was a potentially lethal threat. The "Tueller drill" is now a standard part of all of Ayoob's LFI classes.

 

[Ryder]

I can't fit your scenario because I wouldn't draw on the guy and stand my ground issuing warnings as described here. I'm only going to draw to fire.

I've got a historical habit of putting things between me and an assailant. I can see myself keeping the car between us until he realizes he can't get to me. For his sake he should get discouraged enough to leave. If he turns his attention to the kids he's going to be hurting in a hurry.

I'm sure plenty of people would witness these antics and testify that I was doing my best to avoid his attack. He would still be holding the bat when he goes down.

 

[Lawyerman]

Despite the fact that he's dropped the bat, there is still at least one lethal weapon at the scene. The PISTOL IN YOUR HANDS! Don't law enforcement statistics show pretty convincingly that most officers shot in the line of duty are shot with their own weapons???????????? Officers supposedly trained in weapons retention and hand to hand combat.

No way I'm letting him get close enough to get his hands on my gun given the way he was acting. For all I know the guy is an Ex Navy Seal with Death Touch Hands. He has no fear of my gun, why should I think he would hesitate to use deadly force on me by pummeling my head against the parking lot asphalt? I would shoot him.

 

[atk]

Wow, I didn't realize this thread was going to grow that fast


I think I'm repeating a few things, but I feel a need to clarify my previous post:

1) The person proves his intent to cause harm.
2) He is only 20' away (tuller drill, as mentioned)
3) He has a weapon.
4) The individual is in the process of attacking me - he is charging.

At this point, I have already got others who I have to protect and need to try to get back in the car. The individual is too close for me to turn my back, and I don't remember the scenario including anyone else to watch him for me. The idea of retreat doesn't work - kids to deal with, and the individual is too close. If I feel there's time, I'll call out, "Everyone back in the car!". Either way, I'll call out, "You! Stop!" while I draw. If he stops the attack and becomes a non-threat, I will watch him leave, and call the police with a description.

At this point, it's a good shoot. If it wasn't, I do not plan to draw.

5) He continues to advance, now less than 20 feet away.
6) During the advance, he drops the visible weapon.

6 must have happened while I was drawing, since I don't plan on hesitating.

He is still a threat. He sees me, pointing a gun at him. He is still attacking me. He has already expressed intent to do serious bodily harm. He has changed the playing field, saying "You can't shoot me now", apparantly with the intent of making it harder for me to defend myself against the imminent assault.

I defend myself. If it's safe, I holster my weapon.

I get the kids into the car.

I call the police, state where I am, that a man of such-and-such description assaulted myself and my family, and I have defended them. An ambulance is necessary. My description is so-and-so. Restate location.

I call my family, explaining that this is an emergency, and I need someone to come to wherever I am and pick up the kids. If I'm not there, call the local police to determine my location.

I call my attorney.

I wait for the police, and try to calm down the kids.

When the police arrive, I hand them my license, and my other license. I say, "that man", and point, "tried to kill us, and I stopped him. I have family on the way, to help handle my kids. I expect them to arrive in X minutes."

I expect to go to jail, at least for the night, and take out a second mortgage to pay the attorney.


Now, in specific response to, "you can't use a gun to solve all situations," you're right. A firearm is to be used only when there is no other solution that will effectively stop the assailant. In the scenario you provided, the firearm was the most appropriate tool to use. Pepper spray is not the appropriate level of force against a man charging into my family while weilding baseball bat, when I'm the only defence around. It's not not appropriate to change to a different weapon just because he wants an easier time killing me (as he's already indicated he wants to do).

I'm going to defend myself and my family from whatever threats I see, in whatever manner I belive is most appropriate. If voice, spray, fist, firearm, or human shield is the best way to do that, then that's my duty to my family.



Edited to fix a spelling mistake (may have missed more ).

 

[RandyB]

depends on the situation:

1. If I can get in the truck. "See Ya!" and get outta Dodge.
2. If I can't and my wife/kid is with me. I'd shoot.
3. If the size difference is significant (I'm 6'2" and 250 lb) I MIGHT unload my weapon and place in the car IF I thought I had time and had a chance to talk to this guy. (Besides I tend to carry a back up anyway)
4. If its a "fair fight" and I had doubt of who would win in a physical altercation or I could not safely secure my weapon. I shoot.



Based on the 2nd post criteria (sorry just read the 1st post to not bias myself) . I'd feel the threat justified the use of deadly force. I just couldn't risk my child getting hurt.

 

[fix]

Deciding factor: Kids

 

[geekWithA.45]

My kids are young, 1.5 and 2.8. Ever try to get a kid that young to instantly obey anything?

It ain't gonna happen.

Retreating into the car isn't a realistic possibility.

Running away means abandoning your kids to a maniac, and is unthinkable.

The conditions of the scenario are such that you have no choice but to stand your ground, and the draw decision was valid in the face of lethal force.

I understand the initial conditions of this post try to eliminate disparity of force, but the simple fact of the matter is that unless the attacker is toddler sized or smaller, he's bigger than my kids, and a disparity exists.

Accepting a beating, or attempting empty hand combat with the kids present is foolhardy. If you've had martial arts training of any sort, you learn pretty quick the significant fact that you can LOSE, at which time your children are at the mercy of someone who has demonstrated means, ability, and placed them in jeapordy.

He meets the criterion for a good shoot, and shot he shall be, if all of the screaming, yelling, and verbal commands can't convince him to turn tail an git.

 

[Ryder]

We had a shooting incident over a baseball bat at the next town over last month.

Two groups of college kids. One group invaded the apartment of the other group with a bat. When one of the home team got bonked on the head with the bat another of the home team pulled out a pistol and chased the invaders out of the apartment into the parking lot. Not too many facts such as if or when the bat was dropped but it was mentioned that nothing was hit by serveral bullets other than parked cars. Days later no mention of anyone on the home team being arrested. They do have invaders in custody now.

Looks like somebody in that town agrees with me. If someone decides to act criminal all bets are off and anything that happens to them is due to their initiation of violence. In no way is anything the fault of the defender. Scrutinizing an honest defender to make sure they dotted all their Is and crossed all their Ts is ridiculous. Investigating that they are honest defenders is fine but lay off prosecution of people who were dragged into a mess they wanted no part of in the first place.

What I would do in your scenario and anyone else does is bound to differ. I just do what I've always done because it has always worked for me. No plans here, I just react. Instinct is quick if nothing else. If I have to shoot this guy in your scenario then I have to shoot him. No two ways about it. But that would be a last resort since I have enough faith in my abilities to postpone that until there is no other choice. It's illogical to assume someone would attack children for no reason at all. I'd have to see some indication of intent. Only I was threatened in your scenario. Given 6+ yards of warning in a parking lot I can avoid the guy, that's all I was saying.



Real story:

An old farmer pulled up behind my car at the gas pump last year furious that I had passed him on a yellow line. Just a small dip in the road. I did not notice the length of the line since I was busy looking ahead for oncoming traffic before entering the dip and while passing him (I did cross the end of the yellow line and it was unintentional). He was never in any real danger. I was enroute to work and I don't like braking for idiots when I have someplace to be. I just smiled and acknowledged his verbal assault. I think I even apologized, but he kept up his biatchin while I pumped my gas. When I got done pumping my gas and began walking away into the store to pay for my fuel he walked around to the back of his car and popped his trunk. Then he started digging around in there tossing things around like he was in a hurry to find something. I couldn't see what he was doing in there but my adrenaline was on condition orange. Was I afraid he might come out with a rifle or a shotgun? You bet. Did I draw my weapon and order him around? Noper. The old fart was getting a bag full of pop bottles out for a refund. He didn't say anything to me in the store. His anger had worn off.

 

[fix]

Looks like somebody in that town agrees with me. If someone decides to act criminal all bets are off and anything that happens to them is due to their initiation of violence. In no way is anything the fault of the defender.

That's my position. I personally think citizens should be able to shoot fleeing criminals who have attempted to assault them. This whole "threat has been removed" thing is silly. The fleeing suspect may not be a threat to me anymore, but he certainly is still a threat to the public.

 

[Joe Demko]

The issue of the children turns the trick for me. My daughter means more to me than the lives of every bad-tempered jackass on every highway in the world put together.

He dies.

 

[Smoke]

I do not even know if I will BE on scene when they arrive. If that situation came down and I was alone, and I did not think a witness could identify me, I think I would drive away. If I can avoid having to prove self defense in court, it may mean the difference in bankruptcy, and a comfortable retirement.

This doesn't seem to me to be the brightest idea. Better to call 911 and I.D. yourself and the assailant to the police.


If I have my kids with me that means my daughter is in my arms as she can't walk yet. BG advances he will be shot.

Let's assume that only my son is with me..... we run around the truck keeping it between us and the BG while ordering him to "Stop" ; he comes across truck ...shoot.

Smoke