Dave Williams
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 377
I have enjoyed hearing about other forum members experiences at shotgun classes so much, that when I finally took one myself, I thought I'd share the experience with you all.
I recently attended Rob Haught's One Day Tactical Shotgun Program, at Fort Harmar Rifle Club, in Marietta, Oh. Rob is a Police Chief in West Virginia and a Contract Trainer for Federal SWAT teams. He is the orginator of a shotgun program that is in use by some of the most elite law enforcement and military units in the nation, and taught at the FBI and DEA academies. He is a graduate of some of the top firearms programs in the country. He is also a top competitor in IDPA, being a member of Team Beretta.
Rob is the real deal, has Been There Done That, a dynamic instructor who thinks outside the box to come up with better ways to do things, and simply an amazing shooter with a variety of weapon systems, whch he can provide training in. He is not wed to any techniques, using appropriate techniques for individual situations.
The cost for the intense, fast paced 9-5 training day was $70 per student, which is extremely reasonable, and there were 13 (12 men and 1 woman) very capable students, divided into 2 relays, on 6 reactive humanoid shaped steel targets. We used cardboard IDPA targets for the slug portion of the class. We had a bit of a rain delay in the afternoon, so class was extended a bit, and we ended up driving off after policing up the range at around 7pm. We shot, on average per student, about 300rds of 7 1/2 birdshot, 25rds of 00 buck, and 10 slugs.
The students were all using 12ga shotguns. There was a Mossberg pump, a Winchester 1300 pump, a FN tactical autoloader, a Benelli M1 Super 90, a Beretta 1201FP, 2 Remington 1100s, a Remington 1187P, and about 8 Remington 870s in different configurations, including a neat 14" Vang Comp gun with an Ace folding stock. A few students used a couple different shotguns at various points in the class.
The Winchester took a crap after about 10 shots (it was ejecting live rounds along with empty shells) and Rob let that shooter use one of his Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies 870 shotguns for the remainder of the day. One of the 870s, a 14" police shotgun, had the mag spring shoot downrange during the course. It was returned to service. The 1187 had some functioning problems, I'm unsure of why. The pump gun malfunctions as far as I know were operator induced short strokes. These are the only malfunctions I'm aware of, but there may have been others.
I used a very simple police trade-in Remington 870, with a 12.5" LOP(shortened from the factory length of 13.5" by a friend of mine gratis), gorgeous wood stock and forend, factory recoil pad, 18" bead sighted barrel, a 4 rd mag tube, and a Tactical Tailor 3 point sling. The gun cost me $162.00 before the addition of my extravagant $35.00 sling. After ditching my initial $2.00 nylon carry strap, I am now up to a grand total of $195.00 for this fine, reliable firearm. 870s Rock! The 870 is Rob's preferred shotgun.
I wrote about this gun in this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3924
I used a surplus gas mask bag on my left hip as my ammo pouch, and it worked great. I definitely see the need though for a sidesaddle on a tactial shotgun for a place to keep slugs, and will get a 4 round version. A Surefire forend would be nice also, but they add a considerable amount of weight I'm not sure I want and they are more expensive than my gun even cost. I'm completely sold on 3 point slings for long guns, and no long gun of mine will ever go without one.
I'm still on the fence about sights. Rob considers ghostrings to be a compromise of sorts, being almost as fast as a bead, and almost as precise as rifle sights. He has taken the ghost ring rear sight on his 14' Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies 870 and cut the top half off, creating a U-shaped rear sight. I am very impressed with this setup. I was easily able to quickly put 5 full power Winchester slugs in a nice group in the head of an IDPA target at 35 yards offhand with this sight setup. I was unable to do as well with my bead sight setup.
Rob's goal for the day was to safely teach us a SYSTEM of shooting, reloading, managing, and using a tactical shotgun in the most efficient manner possible. He was effective. We started with a safety briefing, a talk about the role and history of the shotgun, and then Rob's approach to controlling the considerable recoil of the 12ga shotgun, which involves stance, and how you hold the shotgun, and how to use the recoil of the shotgun to help you shoot it faster. This alone was worth the price of admission. Rob drives this point home by shooting some ridiculously fast double taps from his 14" Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies 870 with slugs. Folks, you have to see this to believe it. The barrel literally does not move when Rob shoots slugs, he controls the recoil so effectively. Rob isn't one of those instructors who is shy about shooting in front of his students, which is a huge plus in my book. Rob would shoot various drills from his 870s or Benelli, and he had us shaking our heads in disbelief at how smooth and fast he is.
Once we had that down, we moved on to other topics, like ready positions, presenting from the various ready positions, pivots(left, right, behind), reloading, speedloading, slug select, shooting on the move(forward, back, right, left), multiple targets, transitioning to the pistol, ammuntion selection, Rob's unique CQB position, tactical scenarios where different techniques would be appropriate, etc. Rob has an amazing plethora of drills he had us do, and they are an absolute blast, including the Ken Hackathorn inspired "Box Drill". There is very little down time in this class. If you weren't shooting, you were stuffing more ammo into your carriers, hydrating, or listening to Rob lecture. I am going from memory here, so I may have left something out, but trust me it was a ton of information. "If I'm lying, I'm dying".
Speaking of Ken Hackathorn, he was conducting a private handgun/carbine class in the next bay, and dropped in to say hello. Anytime you get to spend some time on the range with Rob and Ken is a good day. They are good people.
Rob, like his colleague Ken, believes in teaching people to operate with loaded weapons in a 360 degree environment, in a safe, tactical manner, and he had us doing so in a manner of about 2 hours, which many of you will realize is pretty impressive. If you can't do it in a controlled environment like a range setting, how do you expect to do it in the real world? "You won't rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training".
Rob uses a portable microphone/speaker system on the range, so you can clearly hear all his range commands. This small point was important to me, as I have been on firing lines so long and noisy that you literally cannot hear what the rangemaster is saying, and that really sucks, let me tell you.
We did not do any weak hand/one hand drills, which I was looking forward to, but we crammed an amazing amount of work into one day, so I can't complain. After experiencing force on force training, where the very real possiblility of taking rounds in a gunfight is driven home, especially in the hands and arms, I believe weak hand/one hand drills should be significant part of every training program.
I highly recommend anyone interested in tactical shotgun training get in touch with Rob and set up a class. He can come to your location, and does not require an elaborate range facility to have a kick ass class. His email address is [email protected].
I apologize in advance for any grammatical/spelling errors.
Dave Williams
I recently attended Rob Haught's One Day Tactical Shotgun Program, at Fort Harmar Rifle Club, in Marietta, Oh. Rob is a Police Chief in West Virginia and a Contract Trainer for Federal SWAT teams. He is the orginator of a shotgun program that is in use by some of the most elite law enforcement and military units in the nation, and taught at the FBI and DEA academies. He is a graduate of some of the top firearms programs in the country. He is also a top competitor in IDPA, being a member of Team Beretta.
Rob is the real deal, has Been There Done That, a dynamic instructor who thinks outside the box to come up with better ways to do things, and simply an amazing shooter with a variety of weapon systems, whch he can provide training in. He is not wed to any techniques, using appropriate techniques for individual situations.
The cost for the intense, fast paced 9-5 training day was $70 per student, which is extremely reasonable, and there were 13 (12 men and 1 woman) very capable students, divided into 2 relays, on 6 reactive humanoid shaped steel targets. We used cardboard IDPA targets for the slug portion of the class. We had a bit of a rain delay in the afternoon, so class was extended a bit, and we ended up driving off after policing up the range at around 7pm. We shot, on average per student, about 300rds of 7 1/2 birdshot, 25rds of 00 buck, and 10 slugs.
The students were all using 12ga shotguns. There was a Mossberg pump, a Winchester 1300 pump, a FN tactical autoloader, a Benelli M1 Super 90, a Beretta 1201FP, 2 Remington 1100s, a Remington 1187P, and about 8 Remington 870s in different configurations, including a neat 14" Vang Comp gun with an Ace folding stock. A few students used a couple different shotguns at various points in the class.
The Winchester took a crap after about 10 shots (it was ejecting live rounds along with empty shells) and Rob let that shooter use one of his Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies 870 shotguns for the remainder of the day. One of the 870s, a 14" police shotgun, had the mag spring shoot downrange during the course. It was returned to service. The 1187 had some functioning problems, I'm unsure of why. The pump gun malfunctions as far as I know were operator induced short strokes. These are the only malfunctions I'm aware of, but there may have been others.
I used a very simple police trade-in Remington 870, with a 12.5" LOP(shortened from the factory length of 13.5" by a friend of mine gratis), gorgeous wood stock and forend, factory recoil pad, 18" bead sighted barrel, a 4 rd mag tube, and a Tactical Tailor 3 point sling. The gun cost me $162.00 before the addition of my extravagant $35.00 sling. After ditching my initial $2.00 nylon carry strap, I am now up to a grand total of $195.00 for this fine, reliable firearm. 870s Rock! The 870 is Rob's preferred shotgun.
I wrote about this gun in this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3924
I used a surplus gas mask bag on my left hip as my ammo pouch, and it worked great. I definitely see the need though for a sidesaddle on a tactial shotgun for a place to keep slugs, and will get a 4 round version. A Surefire forend would be nice also, but they add a considerable amount of weight I'm not sure I want and they are more expensive than my gun even cost. I'm completely sold on 3 point slings for long guns, and no long gun of mine will ever go without one.
I'm still on the fence about sights. Rob considers ghostrings to be a compromise of sorts, being almost as fast as a bead, and almost as precise as rifle sights. He has taken the ghost ring rear sight on his 14' Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies 870 and cut the top half off, creating a U-shaped rear sight. I am very impressed with this setup. I was easily able to quickly put 5 full power Winchester slugs in a nice group in the head of an IDPA target at 35 yards offhand with this sight setup. I was unable to do as well with my bead sight setup.
Rob's goal for the day was to safely teach us a SYSTEM of shooting, reloading, managing, and using a tactical shotgun in the most efficient manner possible. He was effective. We started with a safety briefing, a talk about the role and history of the shotgun, and then Rob's approach to controlling the considerable recoil of the 12ga shotgun, which involves stance, and how you hold the shotgun, and how to use the recoil of the shotgun to help you shoot it faster. This alone was worth the price of admission. Rob drives this point home by shooting some ridiculously fast double taps from his 14" Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies 870 with slugs. Folks, you have to see this to believe it. The barrel literally does not move when Rob shoots slugs, he controls the recoil so effectively. Rob isn't one of those instructors who is shy about shooting in front of his students, which is a huge plus in my book. Rob would shoot various drills from his 870s or Benelli, and he had us shaking our heads in disbelief at how smooth and fast he is.
Once we had that down, we moved on to other topics, like ready positions, presenting from the various ready positions, pivots(left, right, behind), reloading, speedloading, slug select, shooting on the move(forward, back, right, left), multiple targets, transitioning to the pistol, ammuntion selection, Rob's unique CQB position, tactical scenarios where different techniques would be appropriate, etc. Rob has an amazing plethora of drills he had us do, and they are an absolute blast, including the Ken Hackathorn inspired "Box Drill". There is very little down time in this class. If you weren't shooting, you were stuffing more ammo into your carriers, hydrating, or listening to Rob lecture. I am going from memory here, so I may have left something out, but trust me it was a ton of information. "If I'm lying, I'm dying".
Speaking of Ken Hackathorn, he was conducting a private handgun/carbine class in the next bay, and dropped in to say hello. Anytime you get to spend some time on the range with Rob and Ken is a good day. They are good people.
Rob, like his colleague Ken, believes in teaching people to operate with loaded weapons in a 360 degree environment, in a safe, tactical manner, and he had us doing so in a manner of about 2 hours, which many of you will realize is pretty impressive. If you can't do it in a controlled environment like a range setting, how do you expect to do it in the real world? "You won't rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training".
Rob uses a portable microphone/speaker system on the range, so you can clearly hear all his range commands. This small point was important to me, as I have been on firing lines so long and noisy that you literally cannot hear what the rangemaster is saying, and that really sucks, let me tell you.
We did not do any weak hand/one hand drills, which I was looking forward to, but we crammed an amazing amount of work into one day, so I can't complain. After experiencing force on force training, where the very real possiblility of taking rounds in a gunfight is driven home, especially in the hands and arms, I believe weak hand/one hand drills should be significant part of every training program.
I highly recommend anyone interested in tactical shotgun training get in touch with Rob and set up a class. He can come to your location, and does not require an elaborate range facility to have a kick ass class. His email address is [email protected].
I apologize in advance for any grammatical/spelling errors.
Dave Williams