Robber w/ AK47 shot by Waffle House customer....

[Old Guy]

We do not know why a Husband, at 2-30am, is in a Waffle House, waiting for his Wife to Join him?

To hazard a guess, sounds like a work oriented thing. Cleaning crew?

Me? I have been married to my Wife for near 24 years, we love each other immensely, end of speculation as to why I would go after an armed nut case, had to be, walking into a Waffle House with an AK at 2-30 AM.

It's Texas, not California. The thought of my Wife being in that vicinity, whilst Joe nut case is in that parking lot, with an AK? It is not going to happen.

My intention would be to stop him being in a position to harm my Wife!
My carry pistol is a Glock 19, with great night sights, one I sometimes shoot IDPA with, a 20 yard shot at a 8" plate is doable.

First take a concealed position, behind a car, you want a sitting duck target, not one moving "Hi" He would most likely would turn, and scan?
Front sight, press, shoot twice? Probably.

No indication of distance shots fired at? Two torso hits with 147g Ranger T 9mm, at 15 or 20 yards? If he is still standing, fire again.

911 "I can not hear you operator, I have just fired a pistol, at an armed robber I can see the phone, I know you are listening, I have just shot an armed robber, need an ambulance (Give location, my description) repeat.

Holster my pistol, attempt to render assistance, if no further threat observed. Secure, and make safe AK, just put safety on. First responder to arrive, follow commands. Likely to have other customers present also?

The shooter was not arrested at the scene, yes.

 

[Sam1911]

Maybe not saving the cash drawer, but maybe the guy took your car keys when he took your wallet? Now he's heading to the parking lot with said keys. A car definitely qualifies as tangible movable property.
He was definitely committing robbery, he was definitely escaping with the property, and as he was armed and had previously threatened people with a rifle, you definitely could assume that using anything other than deadly force to recover your property would result in you facing grave bodily harm or death.

There's also the aspect of TX code 9.42 that says:

A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

... and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

Some TX attorneys have noted that the near universality of insurance simply guts that argument.

Can you recover your car by any other means? Sure! No question at all. Hell, if you drove it off a bridge and totaled it, your insurance company is there to make you whole again (at least as far as the car is concerned).

The origins of this law, in which someone might ride off into the sunset with your cattle which you depend on to stay alive, and you surely would never EVER see them again, reflect conditions that don't much exist anymore.


The cash drawer of the waffle house? Doubly so.

 

[HexHead]

His wife may have already been in the parking lot, and walking towards the entrance. We don't have enough facts.

 

[jrdolall]

Can you recover your car by any other means? Sure! No question at all. Hell, if you drove it off a bridge and totaled it, your insurance company is there to make you whole again (at least as far as the car is concerned).

Unless you only have liability coverage.

I love evaluating scenarios and then explaining what I would do...meanwhile in my calm and cool desk chair...

 

[Sam1911]

I love evaluating scenarios and then explaining what I would do...meanwhile in my calm and cool desk chair...

Indeed! It is FAR, far, FAR better to think about all these interrelated issues, think about tactics, analyze the risks, decipher the possible good and possible tragedies brought about by your input into the situation, and to educate yourself about the laws which will rule your world if you take violent action -- all calmly, in safety, long before you find yourself guessing and making it up as you go along while bullets are tearing into flesh.


Which is, of course, the entire reason we discuss real world shootings here at THR. It's not for the purposes of gossip, or cheering the guy in the white hat. It's to analyze and study, evaluate and learn. Plan, decide, and then go train. If these real-world-shooting threads aren't used in that way, we'd simply stop hosting them.

 

[MIL-DOT]

I'm finding arguments on both sides of this to have a bit of traction. Sure, given the limited info we have, the guy seems to have made a foolish,risky decision, both tactically and legally. No argument.
But, he did successfully take out a dangerous,armed felon, one that was crazy and/or desperate enough to rob multiple people, in a well lit public place, with an AK47. The fact that he came out on top, with no collateral damge, and no charges being pressed, seems to go a long way towards vindicating his decision.
And, as pointed out, it's real easy for us all to use our 20/20 hindsight to armchair-quarterback this whole episode from a thousand miles away while sipping coffee at our computer desk !

 

[Kleanbore]

Another point: the guy with the pistol could've been concerned about the potential next victims of this nutball, and just wasn't the type to sit safely out of the way while he had the potential to stop the badguy.
The AK guy could've walked right up to a couple car loads of people stopped at the light and open fired,....

What someone might do does not justify the use of deadly force.

Huh ? The guy just robbed people at gunpoint with an AK47 !! There is "valid reason" for shooting this idiot right in the face that very instant.

What someone has done does not, by itself, justify the use of deadly force.

And, the rational assumption here is not that he's a reasonable guy that just wants some beer money, and he'll peacfully go home. The factual assumption is that the guy is a dangerous,armed felon that is a fraction of a second from killing half a dozen people!!

Laws very among jurisdictions, but there are, in some places, some circumstances in which the shooting of a fleeing felon might be justified.

I doubt that the commission of an armed robbery in which no one was shot would meet any threshold for justification.

Shooting during an armed robbery? Horse of a different color.

Anyone who carries a firearm has an obligation to himself and to the rest of society to gain an understanding of use of force laws.

 

[alsaqr]

IMO: This is not this perps first rodeo. Before the badly wounded perp was identified the police released some photos of his tats hoping that someone would recognize him.

Police have publicly released photos showing some of the suspect’s tattoos in a bid to potentially identify him. Cops say the ink is spread across his arms, legs and forehead. The man is further described as black, around 6-foot-1 and 180 to 190 pounds.

Anyone who recognizes the suspect is urged to contact police at 469-658-3000 or 972-223-6111.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/waffle-house-customer-shoots-robber_us_57863511e4b08608d3324059

 

[jmorris]

Mr. Cooper turned the rifle towards the man with the pistol. That can get you shot in Texas, several times.

Cooper left the Waffle House, followed shortly by the armed patron. The customer called out to the Cooper, who turned and pointed his rifle in the man's direction.

The customer opened fire and shot Cooper several times, police say.

http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/poli...spect-shot-by-customer-from-tattoos/270789780

 

[Sam1911]

The fact that he came out on top, with no collateral damge, and no charges being pressed, seems to go a long way towards vindicating his decision.

Unfortunately, for us, it is hard to learn anything useful from such an outcome.

Sort of like watching someone go crashing through a guardrail and down a cliff in their car, but they manage to walk out of the flaming wreckage with only minor scratches. You can be very, very happy that he's ok. But it's hard to say there's much to learn from or emulate in his event.



Unfortunately, sometimes people historically have looked at such things and said, "well, just goes to show you sure don't need seatbelts!!!" (Remember back in the day when that was still a debate? How many "wise" fools did you hear repeat "I'd rather be thrown clear?" ) It is too easy to look at a damned lucky outcome and draw completely unfounded conclusions from it. Someone else's luck isn't a good indicator of your own future outcomes.

 

[Sam1911]

IMO: This is not this perps first rodeo.

Given how the world works, it's a safe bet that any violent criminal you might happen to meet has preyed on folks before.

I think we'd have to assume that's a given, though it doesn't answer anything about what one should DO.

 

[Sam1911]

Mr. Cooper turned the rifle towards the man with the pistol. That can get you shot in Texas, several times.

Yup. Sure did. We talked about that at length, above. That can get someone shot in ANY state.

Of course, so can yelling at a man who's carrying a Kalashnikov and just held up a restaurant. That can get you shot, too. Even in Texas.

 

[jmorris]

Of course, so can yelling at a man who's carrying a Kalashnikov and just held up a restaurant. That can get you shot, too. Even in Texas.

Sure enough, just standing on the street can get you shot as we know from last week but yeah I would have picked a different time to exercise my First Amendment rights.

I was responding to...

What someone has done does not, by itself, justify the use of deadly force.

It was not what he had done that got him shot rather what he was doing.

 

[Sam1911]

It was not what he had done that got him shot rather what he was doing.

Sure, as I said in a previous post:

The saving grace -- if you can make your mind contort far enough to call it that -- is that the guy did point his rifle at the "good guy" who called out, giving him sufficient legal justification for using lethal force.

 

[SSN Vet]

I haven't been to a Waffle House in ages... and this thread is making me hungry...

I'd like my hash browns Scattered, Smothered, Covered & Chunked, please!

And I'd like the bad guys served up cold and perforated

 

[Old Guy]

IF being a vigilante, is a person who shoots this AK tote-er, in this circumstance, me am one! A man who is carrying an AK47 with a magazine in place, needs shooting in this instance. See his tattoos? Are they screaming jailhouse?

I would like his record of arrests and convictions published.

 

[MIL-DOT]

What someone might do does not justify the use of deadly force.

Yeah, no kidding, everyone already knows that is generally true, and Sam already made that point ("What he MIGHT do to someone else, later, isn't a valid reason for using deadly force.")
But we're not talking about a far-reaching hypothetical, we're talking about a guy actively ( or merely seconds removed from) commiting multiple armed felonies with an AK47. The reasonable assumption is that the first person to not hand over their wallet,cash,keys,car,etc. MIGHT be shot. The guy with the AK has ALREADY crossed over the line from being given any benefit of the doubt.
The first cop to see this guy, if the guy was lucky, would yell, "drop it", and if the guy with the AK delayed half a second, or even flinched, he would've been filled with 9mm holes. And that's because the AK guy has lost the benefit of the doubt, and the reasonable assumption based on recent history, is that he MIGHT very well start shooting. That's why the guy that shot him isn't being charged, and why any cop that shot him wouldn't be charged, despite the fact that the AK guy never once pulled the trigger.
It was all based on what "might" happen, which the AK guy brought on himself.

....I doubt that the commission of an armed robbery in which no one was shot would meet any threshold for justification.

It seems the local cops and DA disagrees.

 

[MistWolf]

We advocate carrying concealed to defend ourselves and others from criminals. Yet, every time someone shares an incident where the goodguys take action, many waste no time getting up on their soapbox to condemn the goodguys and their actions. Bottom line is, our boy in Texas done good and helped get a badguy of the streets

 

[Sam1911]

Bottom line is, our boy in Texas done good and helped get a badguy of the streets

Consider the point to have been completely missed, then.

But as I've said many times before, we don't come here to cheer the guy in the white hat and boo the dastardly baddy in the black hat.

We come here to discuss and analyze real world encounters and try to figure out how to apply the lessons they might teach us.

This, with the limited information we have from the news article, teaches us almost nothing.


But sure, "Yaaay! Go team! Rah rah! Win one for the gipper!!!" And all of that.

 

[jmorris]

Originally Posted by Kleanbore View Post
....I doubt that the commission of an armed robbery in which no one was shot would meet any threshold for justification.

It seems the local cops and DA disagrees.

A grand jury will decide if he will face any charges but it doesn't matter if Cooper was robbing or had robbed, or even gone into the restaurant. Don't point a gun in someone in public or on their property and they won't have justification to shoot you.

 

[FROGO207]

I can think of 20 reasons why the CC guy did this, conversely I can think of 20 reasons why the CC guy should not have done this. He was fortunate for sure! As I said in a different post I hope that if I am ever in this type of situation I quickly make the best choice I need to make. We can all speculate but unless we are in his shoes at that moment the best we can do is to prepare our minds to choose our response should we be so unfortunate.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Consider the point to have been completely missed, then.



This, with the limited information we have from the news article, teaches us almost nothing.


But sure, "Yaaay! Go team! Rah rah! Win one for the gipper!!!" And all of that.

Teaches us that when a nutjob with a semi-automatic rifle goes in and robs & terrorizes people, that at least in Texas you can LET THEM HAVE IT... even in the back without warning, due to danger to others (defense of a third party.)

Notice the did NOT arrest the CHL/LTC holder.

And yep, I'd, if I could, wait till they were leaving or turned their backs. I sure ain't gonna say, "Freeze!"

And that's a good lesson to learn if you live in Texas. Now NYC... bet they throw you in jail.

Deaf

 

[Warp]

The most amusing thing, to me, is how people think Texas is any different than the majority of the country.

Especially since a great many other states are more likely to have a concealed carrier nearby than Texas is.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

I will speculate that calling to the robber causes him to rotate into a center mass opportunity.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

This thread has turned into a laughing stock.

I hope no one gets into a situation which requires SD, but there are a few John Wayne's that have responded in this thread which I REALLY hope never encounter a situation like this, for their own good.

It's a shame that observation of, understanding and abiding by the law is so trivial to some gun owners out there.